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View Full Version : Five months of work has lead to this.



Ero Elohim
01-30-2012, 12:23 PM
http://www.indiedb.com/games/noxious

My final project game is finished. Quite a bit of work went into this. Though it still has bugs and looks a little rough, we did our best with what we could accomplish in five months. Check it out if you want and let me know what you think.

For reference, I was the lead graphics programmer and moonlighted in AI. I also wrote the script for the game, though it wasn't followed as closely as it should've been.

Sillywilly
01-30-2012, 12:45 PM
It's another WoW clone.

Ha

Ha

Ha..........................

Ero Elohim
01-30-2012, 01:13 PM
No no no. It's a Dead Space clone.

Valec
01-30-2012, 01:14 PM
Looks like Call of Duty to me. Except that engine is obviously much newer.

Sillywilly
01-31-2012, 02:36 AM
Looks like Call of Duty to me. Except that engine is obviously much newer.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p7/the_paladin_photo/Not_sure_if_serious_small.jpg

Valec
01-31-2012, 10:18 AM
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p7/the_paladin_photo/Not_sure_if_serious_small.jpg

Ero's game almost certainly uses a newer engine. CoD series is still using the Quake3 Engine(modified, of course)

Ero Elohim
01-31-2012, 10:30 AM
Ero's game almost certainly uses a newer engine. CoD series is still using the Quake3 Engine(modified, of course)

Newer? Yes! Better? Sadly not.

Valec
01-31-2012, 10:33 AM
Newer? Yes! Better? Sadly not.

Well, it isn't being used to power a CoD game.. that counts for something, doesn't it?

Sillywilly
01-31-2012, 01:39 PM
Well, it isn't being used to power a CoD game.. that counts for something, doesn't it?

You get shit on in CoD?

Zoobi
01-31-2012, 01:57 PM
Well, it isn't being used to power a CoD game.. that counts for something, doesn't it?

It certainly does.

Valec
01-31-2012, 07:46 PM
You get shit on in CoD?

I was gonna lol then I remembered your QQ i got beat by 13 year olds on x-box live posts. Then I lol'd harder.

Sillywilly
02-01-2012, 01:50 AM
I was gonna lol then I remembered your QQ i got beat by 13 year olds on x-box live posts. Then I lol'd harder.

Nice try. You suck at CoD because you can use strategy to get around peoples bullshit. I bet you especially sucked at Black Ops didn't you? Yep.

Zoobi
02-01-2012, 02:16 AM
Nice try. You suck at CoD because you can use strategy to get around peoples bullshit. I bet you especially sucked at Black Ops didn't you? Yep.

Man, I knew you had delusions of grandeur, but this is a whole new level!

Sillywilly
02-01-2012, 04:37 PM
man, i knew you had delusions of grandeur, but this is a whole new level!

halo fag!

Pyrrhus
02-01-2012, 08:55 PM
Seriously, can we just ban Silly.

Draconian
02-01-2012, 09:07 PM
He's a mod, brah.

Norska
02-01-2012, 10:27 PM
I thought we were all mods now?

Valec
02-02-2012, 12:53 AM
He's a mod, brah.

The best part is he's a mod who despises me yet can do nothing about it because he is wrong and stupid every time.

Yeah. Fuck you, Sillywilly. Thoughts?

Zoobi
02-02-2012, 01:14 AM
halo fag!

Haven't touched halo since the first one and that was on PC, try again. CoD is garbage and you're garbage if you think there's any skill in it.

Norska
02-02-2012, 02:32 AM
Aren't we all just a little bit garbage?

You know, on the inside?

Sillywilly
02-02-2012, 03:19 AM
Haven't touched halo since the first one and that was on PC, try again. CoD is garbage and you're garbage if you think there's any skill in it.

Awwww somebodies a sore loser.


The best part is he's a mod who despises me yet can do nothing about it because he is wrong and stupid every time.

Yeah. Fuck you, Sillywilly. Thoughts?

LOL.

Why the hell would I ban/whatever you? You're like Steve Buscemi in Armageddon if I'm the asteroid. Your participation is the best ally I have.

Valec
02-02-2012, 03:11 PM
Why the hell would I ban/whatever you? You're like Steve Buscemi in Armageddon if I'm the asteroid. Your participation is the best ally I have.

lololol, i'm not sure what your goal is, but i'm pretty sure you're failing.

Sillywilly
02-02-2012, 04:11 PM
lololol, i'm not sure what your goal is, but i'm pretty sure you're failing.

Wait you didn't comprehend my metaphorical example?

ofrm1
02-02-2012, 06:52 PM
CoD is garbage and you're garbage if you think there's any skill in it.

I don't know how anyone stands playing those games.

Also, what the fuck is with the modern warfare series still using hitscan? I thought the whole point of improving netcode and reducing lag was that we didn't need that shit anymore. Haven't played Battlefield 3 yet, but pretty sure it's all projectile.

I mean, I don't think I've spent more time on a FPS than on Counter-Strike, but I can forgive a game that released over 10 years ago. I can't forgive a game that just released last year that plays itself up to be realistic.

That, and if you're going to have hitscan weapons in your game; at least make them ones that require skill like the LG.

Sillywilly
02-03-2012, 05:33 AM
Wait you guys don't like CoD because it's too easy for you? What do you have like 3.0 lifetime k/d 'n shit?

Norska
02-03-2012, 12:12 PM
Wait you guys don't like CoD because it's too easy for you? What do you have like 3.0 lifetime k/d 'n shit?

Well, yeah.

Then again I kick ass at fps games. Though I'll be humble, my lifetime average was probably more like 2.5 k/d

I still remember my crowning fps achievement. 26:1 in BF 2142. Drunk, high, and popping oxy it was like an out of body experience. I think my heart stopped at one point. But no one could touch me, I was the god of death.

Sillywilly
02-03-2012, 01:21 PM
Well, yeah.

Then again I kick ass at fps games. Though I'll be humble, my lifetime average was probably more like 2.5 k/d

I still remember my crowning fps achievement. 26:1 in BF 2142. Drunk, high, and popping oxy it was like an out of body experience. I think my heart stopped at one point. But no one could touch me, I was the god of death.

Is this on PC or Xbox? Because I don't trust shit coming from the PC. Not that Live doesn't have its douche wipes trying to force host 'n shit but at least you can't use fucking aimbots and it's not so easy to create transparent walls on the xbox. Every FPS I played on the PC was an absolute fucking hack fest except this one dedicated guild server I found in UT2009 until it shut down. Played the hell out of that one on the PC while that server was up.

The thing I like about CoD is you can kill people so much faster than in halo. Too much of halo is dying to some random grenade (often times friendly *sigh*) or because you had no shield from a previous fight. In CoD you can take on multiple people in droves simply because it's not such a long drug out borefest just to drop 1 person.

Saying a game is "too easy" in PvsP is an oxymoron though. How the hell is a PvsP game "too easy"? It's the same difficulty for everyone lol. It's just that some games put interjections into the combat (like slow regenerating shields/etc) to level the playing field so that noobs can get those lucky/clean-up kills.

That's why I prefer CoD over Halo, and it's why I prefer Black Ops over MW2/MW3.

I think of games like CoD as a sanctioned boxing match where both fighters get training time and come in fresh for as even a fight as possible. Halo and UT are more like those events where the same fight will fight 4 matches or so in the same day. Depending on the luck of the draw you may get the fight of your life early on and spend the rest of the day fighting at a disadvantage. I don't like dying to noobs on clean up duty.

Draconian
02-03-2012, 01:38 PM
My best match was 57:3 on Hurtgen CoD1 in some random pub.

Anyway, your troubles with PC games are your own issue, Silly. Yes, hacks for PC exist - but if you're any sort of person who is an FPS enthusiast and falls in love with a game, you don't play on random servers with hackers. You play in established servers with active admins and a good community that doesn't have the desire to cheat in the first place.

FPS on console is a joke. I -LOVE- the fact that it is a system where competition is homogenized across the board because everyone has (more or less) the same hardware capabilities - but the control scheme is a complete monstrosity of failure. The console controller is about as bad as you could possibly design for playing FPS. First off, the whole idea of a pivot stick controlling the camera is arguable just from an ergonomic and efficiency standpoint - but on top of this they have a fucking radius of what, a half inch? You've got to be kidding me, the resolution on the 360/PS3 controller is abysmal in comparison to what's possible with a mouse.


The control format of PC gaming is so much more nuanced and precise it allows for a more robust development depth in player skill and finesse.


Secondly, PC community vs Console community. Nuff said.

Norska
02-03-2012, 01:54 PM
My best match was 57:3 on Hurtgen CoD1 in some random pub.

Anyway, your troubles with PC games are your own issue, Silly. Yes, hacks for PC exist - but if you're any sort of person who is an FPS enthusiast and falls in love with a game, you don't play on random servers with hackers. You play in established servers with active admins and a good community that doesn't have the desire to cheat in the first place.

FPS on console is a joke. I -LOVE- the fact that it is a system where competition is homogenized across the board because everyone has (more or less) the same hardware capabilities - but the control scheme is a complete monstrosity of failure. The console controller is about as bad as you could possibly design for playing FPS. First off, the whole idea of a pivot stick controlling the camera is arguable just from an ergonomic and efficiency standpoint - but on top of this they have a fucking radius of what, a half inch? You've got to be kidding me, the resolution on the 360/PS3 controller is abysmal in comparison to what's possible with a mouse.


The control format of PC gaming is so much more nuanced and precise it allows for a more robust development depth in player skill and finesse.

This on both accounts. If you play an FPS on a comp, you quickly find and only play on the "good" servers, ones that like Drac said have active admins who will spectate and ban the fuck out of cheaters. My go to CoD:MW servers where a group of three that played only on hardcore mode and required you to sight before you shot, and banned if you didn't. Made the game incredibly enjoyable.

I still remember when I was playing CoD:MW and watching a "frag fest video" on youtube thinking... no one is leaning. Why isn't anyone leaning? Why are they charging in like this is Q3? Then I learned it was from the xbox and they didn't even impliment lean on the console versions :facepalm:

I'm also very weird with my control schemes, I turn my mouse sensitivity way down on FPS', which sometimes results in incredahuge arcs knocking everything off my desk in order to get a kill, but it's how I roll.

Also, I wasn't really responding to it being easy, I just wanted to brag about my impressive k:d epeen.

Sillywilly
02-03-2012, 03:51 PM
This on both accounts. If you play an FPS on a comp, you quickly find and only play on the "good" servers, ones that like Drac said have active admins who will spectate and ban the fuck out of cheaters. My go to CoD:MW servers where a group of three that played only on hardcore mode and required you to sight before you shot, and banned if you didn't. Made the game incredibly enjoyable.

I still remember when I was playing CoD:MW and watching a "frag fest video" on youtube thinking... no one is leaning. Why isn't anyone leaning? Why are they charging in like this is Q3? Then I learned it was from the xbox and they didn't even impliment lean on the console versions :facepalm:

I'm also very weird with my control schemes, I turn my mouse sensitivity way down on FPS', which sometimes results in incredahuge arcs knocking everything off my desk in order to get a kill, but it's how I roll.

Also, I wasn't really responding to it being easy, I just wanted to brag about my impressive k:d epeen.

LOL

I agree about the console controller though. The only thing is I like it better even though I am more efficient with a mouse/pad. I don't know why, maybe it's the chill on the couch aspect of it or something. It is harder to be accurate with a controller but at the same time once I got used to it I enjoy it more. It feels more like running around shooting people with a gun to be using the analog stick and trigger button than swinging a mouse around and clicking. Personally I've had very few mice that I actually trust to be very accurate for a FPS shooter. Even with a $75 dollar razor and a 25 dollar "X Track Hybrid" mouse pad I think the input feels more consistent on a controller.

Even though mouse vs controller equals mouse wins, I wouldn't go so far as to say that's because mouse users are more skilled. If a controller is shitty it's because you can't make big turns or because you don't have as much room to make the finer adjustments to your aim. Which makes the game play harder IMO. I'd compare it to racing a car that has power steering vs a car that doesn't have power steering. Making better turns with power steering doesn't really make you a better driver.

I'd have to load up black ops to see what my best record is but I know for a fact I've gone 28 and 0 and my highest K/D is like a 38 to 1 IIRC. (including care packages and what not obviously). It's a regular occurence though for me to have games where my K/d is 5 to 1 or higher and quite often I go into the high 20s with a couple of deaths.

My favorite part though is if one of these ass licks starts screwing up the lobby and forcing host and is eating shots in game there are ways to get around it in CoD. I can use equipment, positioning, deception, to get the kill. People exploiting lag in Halo is like using steriods in an arm wrestling match. There's not alot you can do to about it. I'd compare exploiting in CoD more to using steriods in the UFC. Sure it'll give you an advantage but so many other abilities go into making a good fighter than it's not the IWIN button in CoD that it is in Halo.

ofrm1
02-03-2012, 04:24 PM
Wait you guys don't like CoD because it's too easy for you? What do you have like 3.0 lifetime k/d 'n shit?

If you play to your strengths, FPS games become among the easiest to get good at. It's the initial timesink to develop strategies for success that separate pub gamers from scrim players and higher. Develop bad habits and you'll play badly until you get past those bad habits.

I find RTS games having a much longer timesink than FPS games, and even once you pass that, there's a ton of mitigating factors that affect your success in RTS.

Games without tons of people, without regenerating health, fast-paced gameplay and with complex map structures become the games that require the most skill. There's a reason why Quake was the king of esports up till around 2005/2006.

That, and I don't like CoD because it's popular and it's cool to be contrarian.

VKhaun
02-03-2012, 04:55 PM
There's a simple formula to FPS pubs for a stealth minded player. Camp. Get a burst of kills. Move to a position to kill someone trying to counter the first position. Get a burst of kills. Move to a position to kill someone trying to counter the second position, etc etc. With map knowledge this will lead to brutal kill streaks. Ask KGB. I have wiped entire scrim teams on CS:S after coming back from AFK and picking up an M4 in what we came to call 'pulling a mission impossible' and gone to ABSURD scores on DoD servers that don't change maps (you can share ammo in the original DoD) doing this.

Doesn't work in 'modern' shooters because you don't shoot people anymore. You UAV them, noob tube them, air bomb them, grenade them, leave claymores for them, or even get in a tank or jet and fire giant weapons at them. On something like Planet-Side I'm fine with all the 'noise' because of the scale. I'm one guy among a hundred on my team. But on a not-full 32 person DoD server? YUCK.

I haven't really been playing shooters lately so I doubt I'm very good anymore, but on CS:S (where I play with care bears and usually use mac10's and m249's) I occasionally like to grab an AK/M4 and go 15:1 against the care bears just to remind myself I can. I did alright in Killing Floor with some of you guys, too. I remember totally saving Dumah's bacon one time on KF_Farm with a crossbow headshot on a fleshpound and a triple tap on three moving crawly guys plus a med dart that hit Dumah in the head.

Zoobi
02-03-2012, 08:16 PM
Doesn't work in 'modern' shooters because you don't shoot people anymore. You UAV them, noob tube them, air bomb them, grenade them, leave claymores for them, or even get in a tank or jet and fire giant weapons at them. On something like Planet-Side I'm fine with all the 'noise' because of the scale. I'm one guy among a hundred on my team. But on a not-full 32 person DoD server? YUCK.


This is my biggest problem with the modern shooter. They took the skill out of it. Not only that but there's no such thing as bunny-hopping in shooters anymore(I'm talking Q3/TFC bunny hopping, not just jumping up and down) and the movement pace is so slow that you would have to be mentally retarded to not be able to get absurd k:ds. This is also why the only two shooters I go back to play are CS:S(because it takes all the garbage out of the modern shooter) and quake live because it has the pace I want in a shooter, not to mention you actually have to have maps memorized for their pickups and timers rather than just knowing the layout.

ofrm1
02-03-2012, 09:42 PM
Quake live ftw.

Although last time I checked, the population was way down on it.

Sillywilly
02-04-2012, 04:20 AM
This is my biggest problem with the modern shooter. They took the skill out of it. Not only that but there's no such thing as bunny-hopping in shooters anymore(I'm talking Q3/TFC bunny hopping, not just jumping up and down) and the movement pace is so slow that you would have to be mentally retarded to not be able to get absurd k:ds. This is also why the only two shooters I go back to play are CS:S(because it takes all the garbage out of the modern shooter) and quake live because it has the pace I want in a shooter, not to mention you actually have to have maps memorized for their pickups and timers rather than just knowing the layout.

Now see I hated that shit about Unreal Tournament. I am not going to memorize weapon respawns. I also don't want to have to hope I spawn closer to a power up weapon than some noob who will pick it up and run around with it on their back like it's a cosmetic item. I hated it on Valhalla when some noob would grab the sniper and instead of getting kills and laying down cover for his team would run out into the middle and get swarmed only to give them double the sniper ammo.

To me there is no skill in memorizing where the IWIN gun is and running around grabbing that spawn the entire time beating people because you have the better gun. Unless of course you want your FPS to test your memorization skills. In CoD by lvl 24 you can generall have most of what you want (or actually need) to cover any situation. Your gun choice, class set up etc are all your choice. You can create a class that plays best according to your style of gameplay and then see who's better.

Bunny hopping (at least in the UT sense) has been removed for a good reason. It's only ever been used to create a synchronization gap between a client and host and cause a hit register deficit to opponents. Hell people still do it in Halo 3, you can go back and look at the video and see that all your headhosts in SWAT were dropping people except the ones that were hitting people in the face while they were jumping around. You can even see the guys head bouncing from taking the shots to the visor on your video and he doesn't die all because what you're seeing is out of sync with the host machine.

I do not miss that gay shit at all.

IMO I think online shooters have shifted from all blinding fast reflex to slower but requiring more dead center accuracy simply because the more a game relies on twitch the more the ping/latency matters. In a time when people are playing with each other across the world it's simply not feesible. If you want a perfect example of why and you own an Xbox 360 get a friend of yours from across the pond to fire up the campaign in like Halo reach. Join him with him as host and then try to drive a vehicle or something. The amount of delay is absolutely atrocious. And I'm on fiber optic cable here in Norway. There is no way that shit isn't present in multiplayer. If it isn't as blatantly obvious in VS matchmaking it's because they have coding implemented to "hide" it. In this situation the more emphasis a game puts on twitch the more at a disadvantage players will be to others due to host and proximity to host.

It's not ideal but likely a more accurate test of skill with todays technology than pure twitch is. I liked my FPS fast as hell like UT was. Gave me a huge advantage when first playing Halo/etc because it all looked like it was in slow motion.

ofrm1
02-04-2012, 07:53 AM
Now see I hated that shit about Unreal Tournament. I am not going to memorize weapon respawns. I also don't want to have to hope I spawn closer to a power up weapon than some noob who will pick it up and run around with it on their back like it's a cosmetic item. I hated it on Valhalla when some noob would grab the sniper and instead of getting kills and laying down cover for his team would run out into the middle and get swarmed only to give them double the sniper ammo.

I fail to see what's wrong with memorizing weapon spawns and their timers. It's what separates regular pub players from elites.



To me there is no skill in memorizing where the IWIN gun is and running around grabbing that spawn the entire time beating people because you have the better gun. Unless of course you want your FPS to test your memorization skills. In CoD by lvl 24 you can generall have most of what you want (or actually need) to cover any situation. Your gun choice, class set up etc are all your choice. You can create a class that plays best according to your style of gameplay and then see who's better.

In games like Quake there is no IWIN gun. A proficient player can kill someone with the LG just as easily as with the Rocket Launcher and vice versa. There are tiers to guns, but there are plenty of guns that will kill the enemy effectively.



Bunny hopping (at least in the UT sense) has been removed for a good reason. It's only ever been used to create a synchronization gap between a client and host and cause a hit register deficit to opponents. Hell people still do it in Halo 3, you can go back and look at the video and see that all your headhosts in SWAT were dropping people except the ones that were hitting people in the face while they were jumping around. You can even see the guys head bouncing from taking the shots to the visor on your video and he doesn't die all because what you're seeing is out of sync with the host machine.

This is the same type of argument that people used to complain about wavedashing in Super Smash Bros Melee; that it's just a glitch in the physics. I guess my response is: How is his ability to recognize how to avoid damage in a game not an exercise of skill? He's using precisely the same tools available to you to win the game.



IMO I think online shooters have shifted from all blinding fast reflex to slower but requiring more dead center accuracy simply because the more a game relies on twitch the more the ping/latency matters. In a time when people are playing with each other across the world it's simply not feesible. If you want a perfect example of why and you own an Xbox 360 get a friend of yours from across the pond to fire up the campaign in like Halo reach. Join him with him as host and then try to drive a vehicle or something. The amount of delay is absolutely atrocious. And I'm on fiber optic cable here in Norway. There is no way that shit isn't present in multiplayer. If it isn't as blatantly obvious in VS matchmaking it's because they have coding implemented to "hide" it. In this situation the more emphasis a game puts on twitch the more at a disadvantage players will be to others due to host and proximity to host.

I can't even remember the last time lag killed me and I used to play on german/thailand servers from america. What are you doing that's causing so much lag? Those days are long past with better bandwith and overall processing power.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjX7qwKL4m4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2Cw0d15kTU

You're out of your mind if you think that CoD even compares.

Sillywilly
02-04-2012, 08:50 AM
I fail to see what's wrong with memorizing weapon spawns and their timers. It's what separates regular pub players from elites.




In games like Quake there is no IWIN gun. A proficient player can kill someone with the LG just as easily as with the Rocket Launcher and vice versa. There are tiers to guns, but there are plenty of guns that will kill the enemy effectively.




This is the same type of argument that people used to complain about wavedashing in Super Smash Bros Melee; that it's just a glitch in the physics. I guess my response is: How is his ability to recognize how to avoid damage in a game not an exercise of skill? He's using precisely the same tools available to you to win the game.




I can't even remember the last time lag killed me and I used to play on german/thailand servers from america. What are you doing that's causing so much lag? Those days are long past with better bandwith and overall processing power.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjX7qwKL4m4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2Cw0d15kTU

You're out of your mind if you think that CoD even compares.

Exploiting real world limitations on technology to get around taking damage is like using steroids just because the type you're taking doesn't show up on current testing. It's not skill by any stretch. It's not like people don't know these kind of things exist, youtube cured that problem if it ever was one. Some of us just don't cheapen the game experience by trying to exploit things outside the games intended mechanics. I suppose window dragging in DAoC was skill too?


I can't even remember the last time lag killed me and I used to play on german/thailand servers from america. What are you doing that's causing so much lag? Those days are long past with better bandwith and overall processing power.

lol try and keep it realistic. You must not play very often if you've never encountered a shitty connection. Or either you got lucky and found a top notch server in your area that apparently always run flawlessly and you've spent your entire life on that one damn server. Even when I was back in the states on high speed cable you could still see peoples avatars glitch and teleport around. That's a regular occurence. Or you see their toon moving but their feet aren't moving like they are on an escalator, etc.

It's not like this is some kind of rare occurence. Especially if you were playing in Thailand. It's not like there aren't bottlenecks in between the US and Thailand regardless of how good your connection and the host server might be lol. Even if it was a direct line to someone in Thailand there would still be a delay. There's too many relays in sending information from a mouse/controller to the console, to your router, to your modem to your ISP, through 12k miles of congested internet cable to a host, host processing it, then sending it out to someone else playing on that server in which it has to go through the entire process again.

Zoobi
02-04-2012, 01:58 PM
I don't think you understand what I mean by bunnyhopping. And mastering bunny-hopping(which doesn't take long) is something that needs to happen for you to be good at Q3. Also, there aren't any godmode weapons in UT, I can run around a UT99 server(yes they still exist) and rape people with the piston and you'd call me a god. The only weapon you can even MAYBE apply that to is the redeemer, but even that can be avoided by smart play. The problem with you arguing about us with which takes more skill in these games is that you've never actually played them outside of pub matches. The reason the COD series even exploded like it did was BECAUSE there's so many ways for bad players to cheese people, between bouncing betty's to last stand to noob tubes, to all the bullshit killstreak rewards. That's also the reason you don't see many people playing things like Quake Live because the skill ceiling is so much higher and it takes a LOT of playtime for people to get used to it.

To answer any questions about me playing Q3 (semi)competitively, when I was a kid I'd go to local tournaments for it and compete, often winning, but I never took it to the national scale, this was after the fatal1ty era though.

Norska
02-04-2012, 02:56 PM
As someone who lives in Hawaii where no servers are ever hosted. Ever. I know a thing or two about clogged tubes and lag.

It has never caused me a death that wasn't already the result of me doing something stupid or getting outplayed. A good server is usually in the 120-150ms range. Every once and a while I'kll have a day of great success and find a 70ms server. I never played on anything above 180 though, and that severely limited my server choices when you take into account that you look for actively admin'd servers, as we talked about previously. I usually had a rotation of maybe five or so servers that I'd hop around on for any given game depending on where the most players were, because those were all that were available to me that met my criteria.

As far as shit like kill streak helicopters and other nonsense, hate it. However, I have nothing against noobtubes since they were usually well balanced (limited ammo, small splash, limited range, required skill to aim at any sort of distance)

As far as Q/UT goes, I agree. Bunny hopping was just part of mechanics, and knowing weapons spawns was just like knowing a map. I have nothing against the kit mentality of modern games though that some have, but I do considered them to be two distinct style of FPS. I loved Q3 for the DM and CTF style maps, However I loved MoH:AA/SoFII/ET for their limited weapon choice and objective based maps. SoFII even had a random map generator that did a pretty good job of just fucking everyones expectations up now and again. Never was much of a fan of CS though. I played it when it come on rotation for what game our group played, but it was always meh to me.

When it comes to things like the BF series with vehicles, it never bothered me. There were multiple counters to each vehicle and tactic, from ground placed weapons, to class packs to other vehicles. Hell, people used to bitch and moan about turning humvees into suicide bombs to take out tanks with C4, but I loved that shit (and seriously, if you actually suicided doing that you suck and need to learn to play)

The new CoD approach doesn't have any of that though. There is no skill involved in calling an AI controlled chopper that is given to you for a KS, and there is no counter. Nothing you could do but run and hide. You could brave arty strikes in BF2/2142, and they were a valued commidity for a good commander. Hell, for the most part they were just a minor inconvenience if you had a vehicle with any sort of speed and a pair of at least medium sized balls. You pop your head out when a chopper is flying around in modern CoD games? Dead.

Sillywilly
02-04-2012, 04:33 PM
As someone who lives in Hawaii where no servers are ever hosted. Ever. I know a thing or two about clogged tubes and lag.

It has never caused me a death that wasn't already the result of me doing something stupid or getting outplayed. A good server is usually in the 120-150ms range. Every once and a while I'kll have a day of great success and find a 70ms server. I never played on anything above 180 though, and that severely limited my server choices when you take into account that you look for actively admin'd servers, as we talked about previously. I usually had a rotation of maybe five or so servers that I'd hop around on for any given game depending on where the most players were, because those were all that were available to me that met my criteria.

As far as shit like kill streak helicopters and other nonsense, hate it. However, I have nothing against noobtubes since they were usually well balanced (limited ammo, small splash, limited range, required skill to aim at any sort of distance)

As far as Q/UT goes, I agree. Bunny hopping was just part of mechanics, and knowing weapons spawns was just like knowing a map. I have nothing against the kit mentality of modern games though that some have, but I do considered them to be two distinct style of FPS. I loved Q3 for the DM and CTF style maps, However I loved MoH:AA/SoFII/ET for their limited weapon choice and objective based maps. SoFII even had a random map generator that did a pretty good job of just fucking everyones expectations up now and again. Never was much of a fan of CS though. I played it when it come on rotation for what game our group played, but it was always meh to me.

When it comes to things like the BF series with vehicles, it never bothered me. There were multiple counters to each vehicle and tactic, from ground placed weapons, to class packs to other vehicles. Hell, people used to bitch and moan about turning humvees into suicide bombs to take out tanks with C4, but I loved that shit (and seriously, if you actually suicided doing that you suck and need to learn to play)

The new CoD approach doesn't have any of that though. There is no skill involved in calling an AI controlled chopper that is given to you for a KS, and there is no counter. Nothing you could do but run and hide. You could brave arty strikes in BF2/2142, and they were a valued commidity for a good commander. Hell, for the most part they were just a minor inconvenience if you had a vehicle with any sort of speed and a pair of at least medium sized balls. You pop your head out when a chopper is flying around in modern CoD games? Dead.

Man you guys never had a launcher in the CoD series lol?

Air support in CoD is not that hard. You haven't played the series enough if you think that. I regurarly stay outside with no ghost type perk when the enemy has air support called in. It's all about timing and paying attention to what it is and what direction it's attacking. Dying alot to KS in CoD is considered bad playing in those games. I think if you stuck around longer in the series you'd see what I mean.

UT had pretty much the same thing as bunny hopping. Double jumping and jumping off of walls were all part of the necessary basics. The reason, IMHO, that you see less and less bunny hopping FPS is because of the sync problems that kind of playstyle involves.

The more I play console the more I'm not so sure this "bad can be good because it's easy" has more to do with equal hardware and equal input devices though. When you start mixing up everything from connection speed to hardware quality to input devices then you really start creating some nonskill related gaps in the player bases performance. With a console it's essentially the player and their internet connection. Nobody has a high tech gamepad vs a 10 dollar keyboard. Nobody has a high res lazar mouse vs some sucker with a roller ball, nobody playing on a pentium vs a walmart celeron, etc.

I don't mind the vehicle mode of Battlefield myself. It adds an interesting element to the game. I prefer halo 3 to Reach because of a lack of vehicles in Reach for one thing. My only gripe with the Battlefield series is it can be a complete camp fest and the "gear" gap in that series can be really severe.


The reason the COD series even exploded like it did was BECAUSE there's so many ways for bad players to cheese people[/qoute]

Tell that to all those poor bastards with a sub 1 k/d ratio lol. There might be ways for "average" players to cheese better players out of a kill streak now and then but holy shit if you suck in CoD it shows.

[quote]It has never caused me a death that wasn't already the result of me doing something stupid or getting outplayed.

LOL you've never played a game where you turn a corner and meet an opponent and hit first only to die some weird funky death out of no where? I've played 3 CoD series on console, 2? I think in the US and 3 of them while in Norway. In all instances you have that game where you run around a corner and spray someone and don't get a hit marker until you're half way through your clip. It'll be that same guy, standing still or running and it doesn't matter what you do he's going to do what they refer to as "eat" that first bit of gunfire. If you don't find a more strategic approach to taking him out you'll die 75% of the time in an even ecounter with him.


I never played on anything above 180 though

That would be one helluva ping for playing from Hawaii to the mainland US. When testing my ping I got 121 ms from west coast norway to east coast Maryland which was 3150 miles. That's a pretty damn good connection but that's on http://pingtest.net/ which is optimzed for that sort of thing. In LotRO it has a ping widget that gives me around 250 to 275 ms which is probably more realistic when gaming with a peer to peer matching making setup.

ofrm1
02-04-2012, 04:54 PM
Exploiting real world limitations on technology to get around taking damage is like using steroids just because the type you're taking doesn't show up on current testing. It's not skill by any stretch. It's not like people don't know these kind of things exist, youtube cured that problem if it ever was one. Some of us just don't cheapen the game experience by trying to exploit things outside the games intended mechanics. I suppose window dragging in DAoC was skill too?

No, some of you choose not to use a perfectly legitimate strategy to success that game developers have purposefully chosen not to patch. That's your choice. All it is is an ingenious method of using game physics. At best your argument would hold to games in which the developers actually implemented updates in order to prevent or discourage bunnyhopping like 1.6.



lol try and keep it realistic. You must not play very often if you've never encountered a shitty connection. Or either you got lucky and found a top notch server in your area that apparently always run flawlessly and you've spent your entire life on that one damn server. Even when I was back in the states on high speed cable you could still see peoples avatars glitch and teleport around. That's a regular occurence. Or you see their toon moving but their feet aren't moving like they are on an escalator, etc.

I am. It's not hard. It's just a matter of playing on hi-quality servers that kick people with crappy connections. If you're slow on a server, just move to one that's closer. You make it sound like we're back in 2001.



It's not like this is some kind of rare occurence. Especially if you were playing in Thailand. It's not like there aren't bottlenecks in between the US and Thailand regardless of how good your connection and the host server might be lol. Even if it was a direct line to someone in Thailand there would still be a delay. There's too many relays in sending information from a mouse/controller to the console, to your router, to your modem to your ISP, through 12k miles of congested internet cable to a host, host processing it, then sending it out to someone else playing on that server in which it has to go through the entire process again.

This is a slippery slope fallacy. You're expanding the steps involved in ip-to-host packet communication in order to give the appearance that it takes much longer than it actually does.

If you're having such a hard time with lag, you need to play on servers nearer where you live; it's as simple as that. Complaining about the way games work is not the way to go about it.

Norska
02-04-2012, 05:14 PM
When I say "never played on anything above 180" I don't mean that those servers didn't exist, I just avoided them like the plague and never even bothered logging on to them because they would result in a situation like what you're describing. The vast majority of servers were above my ping limit, I'd just filter them out. Luckily most games have active enough servers so it's never an issue. Also, any well admin'd server usually kicked for players above a certain ping limit, 200ms or such, to further prevent those situations from occuring.

As far as CoD:MW goes, I've only actually played the first MW, and was never a fan of original CoD because I felt MoH was a superior game, and those HC/Sight servers I played on actually banned for using the KS items (they allowed the UAV, but not the chopper or air strike).

Sillywilly
02-04-2012, 06:50 PM
No, some of you choose not to use a perfectly legitimate strategy to success that game developers have purposefully chosen not to patch. That's your choice. All it is is an ingenious method of using game physics. At best your argument would hold to games in which the developers actually implemented updates in order to prevent or discourage bunnyhopping like 1.6.




I am. It's not hard. It's just a matter of playing on hi-quality servers that kick people with crappy connections. If you're slow on a server, just move to one that's closer. You make it sound like we're back in 2001.




This is a slippery slope fallacy. You're expanding the steps involved in ip-to-host packet communication in order to give the appearance that it takes much longer than it actually does.

If you're having such a hard time with lag, you need to play on servers nearer where you live; it's as simple as that. Complaining about the way games work is not the way to go about it.

LOL no I'm not you idiot, that is the exact process it goes through lol. I think you think anything you don't like is a slippery slope.

Don't worry, nobody is trying to change your favorite FPS lol. You will always have a game to try and lose sync with so other peoples coordination doesn't trump your attempts to exploit unintended game mechanics lol. God forbid a nerd try to learn to be good at a game within the bounds of the game instead of using some kind of tech geekiness to overcome the boundaries of the game.


I've only actually played the first MW

Black Ops is where it's at, at least IMO. I never played the 1st MW. I got into CoD in MW2. Can't stand MW3.

Most lag I can handle. Alot of it on Xbox Live is intentional though. I had a guild group of about 5 people that were butt fucking horrible in a lobby with me yesterday. 4 of them would duck out after each game forcing a new host to the 1 guy and repeating until they could choose the same damn map again. We played it 5 times in a row before I quit out and the most you can actually play the same map (legitametly) is twice consecutively. They were trying to lag the game after it started and were butt fucking horrible. If they spent more time just playing instead of trying to bullshit they'd be much better off. Unfortunately we can't even see our ping to the server on live which is where all my FPS gaming as been in the past 3 years or so. (since I got my 360).

Zoobi
02-04-2012, 07:27 PM
Seems you have no idea what you're talking about on this topic like most other topics you post in. I'll just leave it at that.

ofrm1
02-04-2012, 07:40 PM
LOL no I'm not you idiot, that is the exact process it goes through lol. I think you think anything you don't like is a slippery slope.

That's not what I'm talking about. Most of those things happen instantaneously. To try to make it sound like it has to go through all these steps gives the implicit impression that all these steps take forever when they don't.



Don't worry, nobody is trying to change your favorite FPS lol. You will always have a game to try and lose sync with so other peoples coordination doesn't trump your attempts to exploit unintended game mechanics lol. God forbid a nerd try to learn to be good at a game within the bounds of the game instead of using some kind of tech geekiness to overcome the boundaries of the game.

Distilling your argument down to it's core tenets:

1) I never learned to bunnyhop, so everyone who does is not playing fair.
2) People who bunnyhop have better coordination than I do so they're not playing fair.
3) They're more tech savvy than I am to come up with innovative ways of overcoming limitations in the game so they're not playing fair.

The last one is particularly ludicrous because if it was truly unintended, they would have patched the ability to do so or discouraged the use of it in some way yet many developers embrace bunnyhopping.

Don't worry. There will always be games for you to rely upon regenerating health to compensate for your lack of skills and slow gameplay to promote your camping strategies.

See, I can paint your gaming preferences in a bad light as well.

I'm done.

Sillywilly
02-05-2012, 07:35 AM
lol I never said I couldn't bunny hop I just didn't do it excessively to create sync problems. People even do that shit in CoD and Halo jumping furiously trying to cause themself to glitch. I used it for evasion purposes only which is what it was intended for. Just because a couple of faggots have to find "tricks" outside of the game to compete doesn't make it any less pussy to do so lol. But hey, aspergers, the world should bend to my disabilities. I suppose UI mods in MMOs that automatically fire insta conditionals for you isn't cheating either?

Please. You're faggots who think you can fight because you put gravel in your boxing gloves. In a "no rules" competition you'd get shit on, don't mistake finding a competition with rules and then going outside those rules to win as skill. In fact it's evidence of exactly the opposite.

If you use dodge/bunny hop/jump strafe/double jump/etc to avoid projectiles etc like intended then of course that's fine. Using it for to create effects unintended by game design is for skills bitches that can't compete on an even playing field. Going outside of the gameplay itself to get an advantage is not SKILL no matter how much your aspergers induced egocentrism tells you that.

This is not skill it's talentless faggotry:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gears-War-3-CHEAT-rank-up-fast-Cut-N-Kill-Screen-Scopes-/320834166790?pt=Video_Games_Accessories&hash=item4ab334e006

So are controllers that create more accurate fire with auto weapons by using at turbo feature for seamless burst fire, etc.


There will always be games for you to rely upon regenerating health to compensate for your lack of skills and slow gameplay to promote your camping strategies.

No worries pumpkin there will always be games with non regenerating health so you can play clean up killer and maps with power up weapons so you can go to a knife fight with a gun and feel special.

Hey the power-ups aren't that big of deal but it's worth memorizing the quickest route to each one and exactly how long their spawn is lol. Then lets run around catching 2 other people fighting each other and get our kills by sending a rocket between them. That's mad skill yo.

Reflexes and aim? That shit ain't FPS skillz.

This right here real FPS skill:

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p7/the_paladin_photo/4b-memorygame.jpg

So essentially what we've decided is that the CoD and some other new series suck because you Nancys constantly died to like one of the easiest things to avoid in the game. Got ya.

Valec
02-05-2012, 01:51 PM
lol I never said I couldn't bunny hop I just didn't do it excessively to create sync problems. People even do that shit in CoD and Halo jumping furiously trying to cause themself to glitch. I used it for evasion purposes only which is what it was intended for. Just because a couple of faggots have to find "tricks" outside of the game to compete doesn't make it any less pussy to do so lol. But hey, aspergers, the world should bend to my disabilities. I suppose UI mods in MMOs that automatically fire insta conditionals for you isn't cheating either?

Please. You're faggots who think you can fight because you put gravel in your boxing gloves. In a "no rules" competition you'd get shit on, don't mistake finding a competition with rules and then going outside those rules to win as skill. In fact it's evidence of exactly the opposite.

If you use dodge/bunny hop/jump strafe/double jump/etc to avoid projectiles etc like intended then of course that's fine. Using it for to create effects unintended by game design is for skills bitches that can't compete on an even playing field. Going outside of the gameplay itself to get an advantage is not SKILL no matter how much your aspergers induced egocentrism tells you that.

This is not skill it's talentless faggotry:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gears-War-3-CHEAT-rank-up-fast-Cut-N-Kill-Screen-Scopes-/320834166790?pt=Video_Games_Accessories&hash=item4ab334e006

So are controllers that create more accurate fire with auto weapons by using at turbo feature for seamless burst fire, etc.



No worries pumpkin there will always be games with non regenerating health so you can play clean up killer and maps with power up weapons so you can go to a knife fight with a gun and feel special.

Hey the power-ups aren't that big of deal but it's worth memorizing the quickest route to each one and exactly how long their spawn is lol. Then lets run around catching 2 other people fighting each other and get our kills by sending a rocket between them. That's mad skill yo.

Reflexes and aim? That shit ain't FPS skillz.

This right here real FPS skill:

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p7/the_paladin_photo/4b-memorygame.jpg

So essentially what we've decided is that the CoD and some other new series suck because you Nancys constantly died to like one of the easiest things to avoid in the game. Got ya.

This just in, 'bunnyhopping' or 'strafe jumping' do not cause synchronization glitches(aside from making Silly rage).

trol
02-09-2012, 11:09 AM
http://www.indiedb.com/games/noxious

My final project game is finished. Quite a bit of work went into this. Though it still has bugs and looks a little rough, we did our best with what we could accomplish in five months. Check it out if you want and let me know what you think.

For reference, I was the lead graphics programmer and moonlighted in AI. I also wrote the script for the game, though it wasn't followed as closely as it should've been.

That is pretty cool man. I will check it out this weekend (if i get the time). What did you use as far as applications to develop it? A friend of mine has taught off and on at FullSail on the side. He is actually fixing to take more classes on his employee scholarship. I just found out that he moved back to Orlando from NYC and was teaching there again because he was posting about a recent Tool concert on Facebook and we caught up with each other again.

Ero Elohim
08-10-2012, 02:36 AM
That is pretty cool man. I will check it out this weekend (if i get the time). What did you use as far as applications to develop it? A friend of mine has taught off and on at FullSail on the side. He is actually fixing to take more classes on his employee scholarship. I just found out that he moved back to Orlando from NYC and was teaching there again because he was posting about a recent Tool concert on Facebook and we caught up with each other again.

I just realized I never replied to the only person who actually stuck to the topic here.

The game was coded entirely in C++ via Visual Studio 2012. The graphics were done using DirectX 9.0c's C++ API, plus shaders using HLSL. Art-wise, the models were created in Maya, textured in Photoshop, and finer details like normal maps were created out of ZBrush. Sound was handled using the Wwise API, but I don't know the equipment actually used to create and record it. The sound engineers were staff and interns who didn't work alongside us (they represented a form of "outsourcing" on the project.)

All of the engine was built by us without any outside code, with various people on the team usually tackling large systems. I did all the technical work for the graphics, animations, and post-process effects. Once the graphic engine was solidified, I spent most of my time tag-teaming the AI, writing the script, or taking an active part in the design meetings to discuss the direction of the game.

Boxy Brown
08-10-2012, 02:53 AM
I fail to see what's wrong with memorizing weapon spawns and their timers. It's what separates regular pub players from elites.

Normally I agree with most of the things you post but this is literally the exact opposite of how I feel.

Nubsie pubsie is having all the spawn times written down on a sheet of paper or some shit and getting kills with the cheesy power weapons. Prosie posie is wiping their entire team with a pistol.

I mean, how is hoarding power weapons in any way an indicator of skill?

To be fair, I memorize spawn times and locations, that's just smart play, but to use that as your definition of what separates pubsies from pros is asinine.

EDIT: As for the bunnyhopping argument, in AA, where I was #1 in the world for a while according to aaotracker, a bunny hop would make you completely untouchable. You couldn't fire while in the air though, so it was thought to be balanced. What happened was that there was no such thing as getting the jump on someone, since as soon as they got hit once, they would bunnyhop, spin around and open fire. Many servers banned bunnyhopping, and many didn't. I bunnyhopped all the time. I also memorized all the drop-shots and camped hostages. There was a reason I was #1 and it's because I played like a fag. None of those things were cheating as far as the game was concerned, but many servers chose to ban people who used those tactics. Having said all that, none of the things I listed are in any way shape or form an indicator of a higher or lower skill level. In my mind, it goes style > skill > scoreboard. I had the #1 ranking in the game for a while, but I wouldn't even say I was in the top 500 players as far as skill was concerned.

Graveworm
08-11-2012, 02:07 AM
Well, being someone who also graduated from Full Sail's game development program, I am probably the most qualified on this forum to give you feedback so here it is: your game is solid, but not mind-blowing. It seems better than most of the final projects I saw at Full Sail when I was there, so unless the bar has really been raised I'd say you should be proud of your work. Too bad you'll probably never read this because the shitheads that post on this forum derailed the thread with retarded bullshit.

Ero Elohim
08-11-2012, 02:29 AM
Well, being someone who also graduated from Full Sail's game development program, I am probably the most qualified on this forum to give you feedback so here it is: your game is solid, but not mind-blowing. It seems better than most of the final projects I saw at Full Sail when I was there, so unless the bar has really been raised I'd say you should be proud of your work. Too bad you'll probably never read this because the shitheads that post on this forum derailed the thread with retarded bullshit.

Oh, it was never meant to be mind-blowing from a design perspective. My first attempt at final project tried to do something relatively innovative, but trying to keep a coherent design together when you have no authority and a dozen other 20-somethings able to overrule you is near impossible. The second time through, I'd just played through Dead Space 1/2 and figured aiming at that was a decent goal. It let us concentrate on the tech and artwork without getting too bogged down in roundabout design discussions about what type of game it was.

All in all, it turned out to be one of the best final projects the school has seen, and we got consistently great responses from the staff and testers. Yeah, I'm a bit proud of it.

If I may ask, when did you go to Full Sail? What was your project?

Graveworm
08-11-2012, 06:11 PM
I graduated in 2007 (I think September but I'm not sure). Our project was a rail shooter called Wings of Adoro. It was pretty solid and I heard they starting using our work as an example in class but I'd imagine they have different games to show you by now. Sadly the game is no longer available on the internet (back in MY day we had to host our own website to get our project online and I only kept it up for two years). I'm curious: what are class sizes like now, and how many people did you have on your final project team?

Zavon
08-11-2012, 06:44 PM
Did both of you guys get a job in the gaming industry post Full Sail? Just curious.

Ero Elohim
08-11-2012, 07:22 PM
I graduated in 2007 (I think September but I'm not sure). Our project was a rail shooter called Wings of Adoro. It was pretty solid and I heard they starting using our work as an example in class but I'd imagine they have different games to show you by now. Sadly the game is no longer available on the internet (back in MY day we had to host our own website to get our project online and I only kept it up for two years). I'm curious: what are class sizes like now, and how many people did you have on your final project team?

I might've seen a few screenshots around. It sounds familiar.

Our class started at around 40-50 people, but quickly shrunk to about 12-15 core students. We'd pick up a few people every month, but usually lose them again. My final project team started at sixteen people (eight programmers, seven artists, one producer), but we lost three along the way. However, that team was enormous and, had there been more than one producer at the start, I guarantee we would've been split into two.


Did both of you guys get a job in the gaming industry post Full Sail? Just curious.

I personally didn't, but I know quite a few people who did. One of our artists went to work for Turbine, an old producer of mine now works at EA Tiburon, a programmer works for Volition, and a few other members went to work for various indie studios. Quite a few people I know also went into the simulation industry, working for military or scientific purposes.

I chose to take a rather cushy job doing applications work in Ohio, but I'm thinking of getting out of here because there's not much room for advancement and it's not an energetic workplace.

Graveworm
08-11-2012, 11:30 PM
Do they use student artists again? When I went through they had just started using the lab assistants from computer animation for everyone's project because they had issues with the students being unreliable. We had 6 people plus an instructor overseeing the project, and even that only happened because they last group of 4 didn't want me and I didn't want to work with them. Of course, their project was a fucking disaster because they were full of themselves and overambitious for a project involving 4 programmers. My class was around 60 at the start and I think we dwindled to about 30-some. What company do you work for, if you don't mind saying? One of my classmates has a job at a software company in Ohio.

@Zavon: I ended up deciding that a career in game design wasn't going to work for me, for a few reasons. First and most importantly, the social skills required for networking are not something I excelled at (shocking, I know). I also was lazy and didn't look for a job right out of college, so by the time I did my skills were rusty. The only company I ended up applying to was Big Huge Games and I did terrible on the skills test they sent me. After that I got a non-paid offer to work with some of my classmates trying to start their own company and did that for a while, but when my dad died I re-evaluated where my life was going and decided to forget about a career in game design. That being said out of the few people I am still friends with on Facebook, most of them at the very least got jobs working for software companies (the ones that don't are more of a reflection of themselves than their eduction), and at least one has been fairly successful in the game industry. He DID get a job at Big Huge Games where he worked on Kingdoms of Alamur: Reckoning, and has moved on to Red Fly Studios where he has worked on Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II (Wii), Thor: God of Thunder (Wii), and Metal Gear Solid HD Collection (Vita).

Ero Elohim
08-11-2012, 11:56 PM
Do they use student artists again? When I went through they had just started using the lab assistants from computer animation for everyone's project because they had issues with the students being unreliable. We had 6 people plus an instructor overseeing the project, and even that only happened because they last group of 4 didn't want me and I didn't want to work with them. Of course, their project was a fucking disaster because they were full of themselves and overambitious for a project involving 4 programmers. My class was around 60 at the start and I think we dwindled to about 30-some. What company do you work for, if you don't mind saying? One of my classmates has a job at a software company in Ohio.

Yeah. We used student artists. The faculty is extremely strict on them these days. Two of our artists failed out because they refused to lower their own standards and produce art quick enough (the third fail was our producer, who refused to take charge of anything.)

I work for a company called Automation Software and Engineering.

Graveworm
08-12-2012, 12:58 AM
Ah, my classmate works for a different company. When I went through we also didn't have student producers, we had on of the instructors or lab assistants overseeing each project.