PDA

View Full Version : PvP in SWTOR: A Verdict



Marou
02-16-2012, 02:46 PM
Worthless at 50, loads of fun before then.

Brackets: 10-49, 50

How it works: Prior to level 50 warzones are gear/stat balanced to artificially place everyone on a fairly level playing field. This eliminates the problem DAoC and WoW had with "twinks" dominating select low level brackets. This is similar in spirit to what Guild Wars 2 is doing with their "scenario based" PvP. At 50 this ends, suddenly you are competing against people that do about double the damage you do, and can take twice as much.

Result: Why farm PvP or raid gear? The disparity is large enough that it's uninteresting to do so. It's either /faceroll people cause you outgear them, or get /facerolled because they outgear you. Perhaps once in awhile you'd have a good match, but overall it's just too imbalanced between the extremes to be considered "good PvP".

Verdict: The combat and class dynamics are fun enough that it's worth buying for a short term distraction (2-3 months), but the game has poor long term prospects due to overall design.

Ero Elohim
02-16-2012, 03:05 PM
Considering GW2 just released more info about the WvW system, which I may as well call the DAOC system from now on, including keeps, three frontiers with a fourth middle zone, capturable relics called "Orbs of Power", serverwide bonuses calculated by HOLDING objectives - not taking them, and a bolster system so that anyone can join in without fear of getting one-shot, plus XP and level-appropriate loot from world PvP...

Yeah, why would I need to play a different MMO?

Valec
02-16-2012, 03:08 PM
GW2 is definitely going to be awesome.

Ero Elohim
02-16-2012, 04:05 PM
GW2 is definitely going to be awesome.

I'm just hoping they don't ruin it with something stupid like buffbots, shitty netcode, or overbearing microtransactions.

VKhaun
02-16-2012, 05:35 PM
KGB goes on about the medals system every time I see him. Some classes can get several easily, while specialists have trouble... then the community seems to like giving the person with the most medals... their extra medals? Or something like that.

Boxy Brown
02-16-2012, 06:15 PM
Worthless at 50, loads of fun before then.

Brackets: 10-49, 50

How it works: Prior to level 50 warzones are gear/stat balanced to artificially place everyone on a fairly level playing field. This eliminates the problem DAoC and WoW had with "twinks" dominating select low level brackets. This is similar in spirit to what Guild Wars 2 is doing with their "scenario based" PvP. At 50 this ends, suddenly you are competing against people that do about double the damage you do, and can take twice as much.

Result: Why farm PvP or raid gear? The disparity is large enough that it's uninteresting to do so. It's either /faceroll people cause you outgear them, or get /facerolled because they outgear you. Perhaps once in awhile you'd have a good match, but overall it's just too imbalanced between the extremes to be considered "good PvP".

Verdict: The combat and class dynamics are fun enough that it's worth buying for a short term distraction (2-3 months), but the game has poor long term prospects due to overall design.

This is exactly the same way I ended up feeling. I didn't think I could enjoy PvP in a post-WoW MMO as much as I did with SWtoR but I definitely made the right call to cancel my sub.

Graveworm
02-16-2012, 07:32 PM
Man, you guys must have missed out on when 50s queued with the rest of us. Good. Times.

Zavon
02-16-2012, 07:52 PM
There is a lot to be done about endgame pvp from what I hear. Fortunately pvp from 10-49 is so much fun, that I can keep rolling alts to do it (until they fix 50 pvp).

Sillywilly
02-17-2012, 10:53 AM
It's Warhammer all over again lol. I haven't gotten a toon to 50 but Mythic loves creating artificial skill gaps in it's player base through gear acquirement or grind. Why ToA was ever a good idea to Mythic I have no idea. Not because ToA wasn't fun, the problem was that ToA was designed in a way that would be fun for PvsE types yet the rewards were mostly for PvsP. So it's like they created Dragon Age for the Call of Duty fans lol.

Too much of PvsP in SWtOR gave me that NEGATIVE Warhammer nastalgia feeling. Warhammer had it's perks but in the end the total package sucked. The Old Republic is too much of a punt/knockback fest with oodles and kaboodles of short duration CC in between.

It was a fun distraction for the first 2 months but in the end anything that expects a subscription from me has to play more like an open/persistent world MMO. That sucks too because the xbox is boring me right now and I wanted to fill the gaming gap with an MMO. :-/

kiroj
02-21-2012, 08:50 AM
I can see where your argument is coming from, and I don't completely disagree. That first week (or so) of Warzones after you hit the level 50 bracket can be a bit rough. Still, it really doesn't take long to close the gear gap if you work at it. If you plan ahead, you will have 1,000 of each commendation and an unopened Champion bag when you hit 50. That's six bags right off the bat, and completing your daily and weekly WZ and Ilum quests on the first night gets you another 8 (at least). Even if you don't get any Champion exchange tokens, you will still be picking up enough Centurion commendations to pick up several pieces.

If you don't mind doing some PvE as well, doing your daily quests on Ilum & Belsavus also helps a great deal. The armor mods are good gap closers for folks who wear moddable armor, and the Rakata earpieces and implants are a huge boost when you can afford them. You dailies will also earn you about 150k every time you run them, quickly making in-game money a moot point.

It really doesn't take you as long to gain some PvP survivability as you think it does. If you're pugging, you are still going to get obliterated when you come up against a good premade on the other side, but the explosive nature of your death has less to do with the fact that they are all in Battlemaster gear than with the fact that they are all assisting, going after the healers first, and doing all the the things that good groups do. Don't get me wrong, Battlemaster gear helps if you can get it, but there really isn't that big of a statistical boost between Champ and Battlemaster, and getting Champ doesn't take long if you PvP a lot.


The biggest issue that I have with PvP in SW:ToR is the state of open PvP on Ilum. That whole system just needs to be trashed and redone from the ground up. A good start would be redoing the zone so that the Western half of the planet (the PvP area) is a separate zone with population caps of 20 for each faction (with new instances starting for those who would exceed those caps). That would help to alleviate the population imbalance and keep the numbers low enough that most battle participants wouldn't go into slideshow mode due to lag.

I am still enjoying PvP in the game (both below and at 50). Surprisingly, I am also finding myself really enjoying the PvE. I haven't really enjoyed raiding or other endgame PvP in MMO's since EQ burned me out during Planes of Power, but the guild and I have been having a blast with the level 50 hard modes, and we're about to have enough level 50's to start running some of the operations. The fact that I'm looking forward to it rather than dreading it speaks volumes.

Marou
02-21-2012, 09:30 AM
I can see where your argument is coming from, and I don't completely disagree. That first week (or so) of Warzones after you hit the level 50 bracket can be a bit rough. Still, it really doesn't take long to close the gear gap if you work at it. If you plan ahead, you will have 1,000 of each commendation and an unopened Champion bag when you hit 50. That's six bags right off the bat, and completing your daily and weekly WZ and Ilum quests on the first night gets you another 8 (at least).

It's this. We moved past the point in our lives where we are willing to spend 20+ hours a week for a week or more doing something tedious and frustrating to potentially recapture something we already have (fun PvP pre-50). I can understand if you still have the time and patience to "work" at games. I don't, I see something like that and think; "Wow, I could be having fun RIGHT THIS SECOND doing something else."

Also, Ilum is completely retarded. If it wasn't completely retarded I might enjoy it.

kiroj
02-21-2012, 12:17 PM
It's this. We moved past the point in our lives where we are willing to spend 20+ hours a week for a week or more doing something tedious and frustrating to potentially recapture something we already have (fun PvP pre-50). I can understand if you still have the time and patience to "work" at games. I don't, I see something like that and think; "Wow, I could be having fun RIGHT THIS SECOND doing something else."

Also, Ilum is completely retarded. If it wasn't completely retarded I might enjoy it.

Okay, you have me as far as the PvE daily quests are concerned. Doing them every day does get a bit dull, and if it weren't for the cash they brought in, I might have chosen to just skip them.

For the other part though... I'm talking about saving up commendations pre-50. If you do a lot of PvP, you should have more warzone commendations than you know what to do with. If you PvP enough to keep your valor rank capped by your level, you should run out of stuff to buy with your tokens and be able to pick up the champ bag and 1000 of each token well before you hit 50. Incidentally, if you do PvP that much, and you really want to get ready for the level 50 bracket, you can repeatedly buy level 46 PvP weapons, pull the expertise enhancements out of them, and stick them in all of your other gear.

What I'm basically saying is that if you primarily PvP in the game anyway, getting this won't require any "work." It will just be a natural side effect of running lots of WZ's in your 40's and, it will enable you to participate effectively in level 50 WZ's from day one. Beyond that, if you don't go to Ilum (which I will freely admit is NOT fun right now) it's still just a matter of doing your daily/weekly Warzone quests. Hell, just pick up 9 wins a week. That's enough for your weekly and three dailies - 6 more bags.

I honestly like level 50 WZ's a lot more than the lower level ones... for many of the same reasons you mentioned in your post. On my server (Kinrath Spider, Republic side), we had a period where there was a strong division between the "haves" and the "have nots" in level 50 WZ's, but things have really started to equalize. We still have quite a few first-wave, 50-three-days-after-release, Ilum-exploiting, Battlemasters running around, but more and more of the other folks have started migrating into Champion or Battlemaster gear of their own. Truth be told, with a suit of Centurion gear (which isn't hard to get AT ALL with the new system), you can contribute perfectly well in top-level WZ's. Will you still be at a disadvantage against the people in top-tier PvP (or PvE) gear? Yes, you will. However, in my opinion, the disparity is less than what you run into in the 1-49 WZ's. At levels 45-49, good, well-geared players are virtual walking gods in the 1-49 WZ's. In both the upper and lower WZ's having a group that communicates, works together, and doesn't do stupid shit is 10x the advantage of having top-end gear.

If you enjoy 1-49 WZ's and the leveling process (I'm a fan of that as well) more than endgame PvP, that's fine. Everyone should do what they find to be the most enjoyable. I just don't agree with your description of the impact of the gear discrepancy in level 50 PvP. The chasm between the "haves" and the "have nots" simply isn't what it used to be, and it requires little in the way of time or effort to overcome as long as you enjoy PvP in the first place.

Zavon
02-21-2012, 12:39 PM
Hey thanks for the tip about the weapon expertise mod Kiroj. I might try that!

Marou
02-22-2012, 03:03 AM
If you enjoy 1-49 WZ's and the leveling process (I'm a fan of that as well) more than endgame PvP, that's fine. Everyone should do what they find to be the most enjoyable. I just don't agree with your description of the impact of the gear discrepancy in level 50 PvP. The chasm between the "haves" and the "have nots" simply isn't what it used to be, and it requires little in the way of time or effort to overcome as long as you enjoy PvP in the first place.

There shouldn't be a gear chasm at all. Lets look at DAoC. Prior to Shrouded Isles, you just got your epic gear, PvP, Go. Then SI came out, get some masterwork crafted stuff, template it out how you like, PvP, Go. Ruined a bit with ToA, and really that's when I pretty much stopped playing the game. Why did this work? No real raiding, and the raiding that was there was pretty irrelevent and stupid.

PvE raiding ruins PvP games, and attracts shitastic PvP'ers that think they are 1337 because they can 1-shot people with their farmed up gear. Availability of hugely overpowering raid gear forces the developers to make a PvP gear grind or your PvP'ers will have to PvE raid to grind gear to compete with said shitastic players, which is even worse. Gear grinding shouldn't have a prominent place in PvP, it ruins it. Either you overpower your enemies because you're better geared, or you get killed by a retard using 1 attack button because they do so much more damage than you and take so much less. It's horrible design, it ruins PvP. It's why GW2 is the great white hope right now.

How long it takes to grind PvP gear is irrelevent because significant gear imbalances should not exist in PvP, period. It's probably too late for Star Wars to be a good PvP game because they already catered to gear farming retards by copy/pasting WoW styled gear progressions. However, I'm having fun for now, at least in the lower more balanced bracket, and will probably play awhile longer. They may improve some stuff with their PvP patch 1.2, who knows; but it will never work how it should have worked. The design is bad and it's probably too late to change that.

Boxy Brown
02-22-2012, 04:39 PM
There shouldn't be a gear chasm at all. Lets look at DAoC. Prior to Shrouded Isles, you just got your epic gear, PvP, Go. Then SI came out, get some masterwork crafted stuff, template it out how you like, PvP, Go. Ruined a bit with ToA, and really that's when I pretty much stopped playing the game. Why did this work? No real raiding, and the raiding that was there was pretty irrelevent and stupid.

PvE raiding ruins PvP games, and attracts shitastic PvP'ers that think they are 1337 because they can 1-shot people with their farmed up gear. Availability of hugely overpowering raid gear forces the developers to make a PvP gear grind or your PvP'ers will have to PvE raid to grind gear to compete with said shitastic players, which is even worse. Gear grinding shouldn't have a prominent place in PvP, it ruins it. Either you overpower your enemies because you're better geared, or you get killed by a retard using 1 attack button because they do so much more damage than you and take so much less. It's horrible design, it ruins PvP. It's why GW2 is the great white hope right now.

How long it takes to grind PvP gear is irrelevent because significant gear imbalances should not exist in PvP, period. It's probably too late for Star Wars to be a good PvP game because they already catered to gear farming retards by copy/pasting WoW styled gear progressions. However, I'm having fun for now, at least in the lower more balanced bracket, and will probably play awhile longer. They may improve some stuff with their PvP patch 1.2, who knows; but it will never work how it should have worked. The design is bad and it's probably too late to change that.

Here here. Remember when killing a boss used to be about killing the boss, and not the dice roll that followed? As I've said a million times: Player crafted gear should be the best gear available in a PvP MMO. You could even keep PvP and raid gear in the game, just make it look 100X cooler than the crafted stuff. There are still raid/grind incentives, but they're purely aesthetic.

Zoobi
02-22-2012, 05:28 PM
Here here. Remember when killing a boss used to be about killing the boss, and not the dice roll that followed? As I've said a million times: Player crafted gear should be the best gear available in a PvP MMO. You could even keep PvP and raid gear in the game, just make it look 100X cooler than the crafted stuff. There are still raid/grind incentives, but they're purely aesthetic.

That's precisely what Arena.net is doing with GW2. Raid gear will be for aesthetic and bragging rights only.

Saxiphone
02-25-2012, 08:22 PM
GW 2 will be amazing because you will have the option to jump.

Pyrrhus
02-26-2012, 06:56 PM
/fap/fap/fap

GW2.