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View Full Version : Hai Guys, lets make an MMO



Marou
05-08-2012, 05:46 AM
$99/year

http://www.heroengine.com/herocloud/download-herocloud/

I'm honestly very tempted. Any of you other guys interested and willing to shell out cash?

Zoobi
05-08-2012, 08:51 AM
Kickstarter HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

That being said, I'll be a tester for you if you do get a project going.

Marou
05-08-2012, 08:55 AM
Kickstarter HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

That being said, I'll be a tester for you if you do get a project going.

What would actually be needed if you got no programming skills is level building/scripting/art/sound, etc. No point in having QA for non-existent content. They have these template "generic fantasy" worlds. I'm thinking it would be plenty of fun to just load up the "generic fantasy" template and play with gameplay mechanics until we find something really nice, then start replacing assets in the generic world and play with Random World Generation algorithms. True random generation for dungeons results in confusing nightmares, but if you make a bunch of areas that can daisy chain together (think D2/3) it actually works rather nice.

Boxy Brown
05-08-2012, 10:11 AM
I'm willing to hear a proposal. You're one of the guys who has great ideas for an MMO and as far as I know a solid programming background.

Pyrrhus
05-08-2012, 10:37 AM
I've been playing minecraft a lot recently, does that qualify me for level design?

This sounds interesting to say the least.

Draconian
05-08-2012, 11:28 AM
I would be extremely interested in helping. I'm not a great programmer, but I think I've got enough experience dicking around with it and MUD mechanics to be able to fuss around and figure things out.

Ero Elohim
05-08-2012, 11:37 AM
I've got two small indie game projects under my belt and I specialize in shader-level graphics programming. I've had an itch to get back into a project to keep my skills up, anyway.

Marou
05-08-2012, 11:44 AM
So, here is about how it'd work. I'd buy dev/access for $99 this weekend or something, set up a project, load in their "generic fantasy" mmo template and we could get to toying around. Do I seriously expect a real game to come out of it? Probably not, but who knows, stranger things have happened. If we can create interesting mechanics, player structure placement, and some good methods of doing sane world randomization we might be able to pull in some modders to turn it into something real.

Big MMO studios think theme park content is at the heart of an MMO, but we know better, so shall I drop the cash? Will I be playing around alone, or will you guys drop cash after I do to get all the tools in hand as well?

Draconian
05-08-2012, 11:48 AM
I am the king of wasting money online. If you get it up and running and it's accessible enough for me to become interested, I would chip in.


Right off the bat I would say I'm a fan of skill-based systems rather than class based, UNLESS there are so many class options and specs you don't feel like you're the 738th identical Shield Tank created in the game.

Boxy Brown
05-08-2012, 11:53 AM
I am the king of wasting money online. If you get it up and running and it's accessible enough for me to become interested, I would chip in.


Right off the bat I would say I'm a fan of skill-based systems rather than class based, UNLESS there are so many class options and specs you don't feel like you're the 738th identical Shield Tank created in the game.

This. I'll do the same but I don't have a lot of disposable income right now.

Marou
05-08-2012, 11:53 AM
I am the king of wasting money online. If you get it up and running and it's accessible enough for me to become interested, I would chip in.


Right off the bat I would say I'm a fan of skill-based systems rather than class based, UNLESS there are so many class options and specs you don't feel like you're the 738th identical Shield Tank created in the game.

I am in agreement with skill based over class based, but I think it has to be separated into trees or archetypes that reward being essentially a "class" with some wiggle room to splurge in other areas, or full on hybrid at the cost of the higher tiers of specialist power. My initial concern is less about those sorts of details and more related to making combat that doesn't suck ass in that MMO kind of way.

Boxy Brown
05-08-2012, 12:02 PM
My initial concern is less about those sorts of details and more related to making combat that doesn't suck ass in that MMO kind of way.

Man after my own heart. Honestly the best thing DAoC ever did was reactional/positional styles. Or were you leaning more towards aiming all your skills ala Might and Magic? An MMO with LOMM style combat would own HARD.

Marou
05-08-2012, 12:15 PM
Man after my own heart. Honestly the best thing DAoC ever did was reactional/positional styles.

See, I had this thought train, and I'd really like to make it work, combining the type of active attack mechanics and defense we see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y0las3-e1M
where you are actually controlling your weapon, with an MxO style interlock system to prevent the idiocy of jousting and circle strafing those sorts of things turn into in reality. Such a mechanism would simultaneously allow the player (much greater) control over their weapon/defense while in melee, since the movement is autonomous in interlock mode. Using a limited cycling hotbar of re-actives that can be performed after certain actions like successful parry, duck, etc. In this concept positionals would be a gravy way of beginning interlock.

Add that to aimed ranged attacks, and a few different "escape" mechanisms for getting out of *interlock* and you have a rough idea of my vision for a combat system. Or, what I'd love to build and post youtubes of just as a giant *fuck you* to all these WoW-clones.

The biggest risk of wasted cash I get with wild hair up my ass software ideas, is I implement them enough to prove to myself I can do it, and lose interest.

Boxy Brown
05-08-2012, 12:25 PM
SWEATING the way that video looks. How come I have never heard of that game before? I imagined that's how Age of Conan was supposed to look before they fucked it up. I don't know about the interlock idea though, that seems even MORE restrictive than the tab targeting system. Instead of that you could just add a penalty for moving while you swing/shoot or something like that. That could even be a skill; reduce the penalty for moving and striking simultaneously (in a similar vain to using an offhand weapon in DnD with/without the two weapon fighting feat).

Marou
05-08-2012, 12:30 PM
SWEATING the way that video looks. How come I have never heard of that game before? I imagined that's how Age of Conan was supposed to look before they fucked it up. I don't know about the interlock idea though, that seems even MORE restrictive than the tab targeting system. Instead of that you could just add a penalty for moving while you swing/shoot or something like that. That could even be a skill; reduce the penalty for moving and striking simultaneously (in a similar vain to using an offhand weapon in DnD with/without the two weapon fighting feat).

I'll tell you how I arrived at that, you should be able to generically "swing" at someone outside of interlock, but in order to do the more advanced blocking and sword/weapon control I'd like to see, humans don't have enough hands to do that, and move, and control the camera, actively block/dodge/parry, and actively direct where their weapon is swinging. So, generically whacking away at someone would work, but if they pull you into interlock it becomes a real weapon fight instead of goofiness. As a melee you'd want to pull people into interlock because that's where the real fun/skill would be had. As a ranged combatant you'd want to stay the fuck away from melee.

Can I actually program it to work how I think it should? Dunno, it'd be fun to try though with a toolkit that means I'm not starting from scratch.

Boxy Brown
05-08-2012, 12:35 PM
I'll tell you how I arrived at that, you should be able to generically "swing" at someone outside of interlock, but in order to do the more advanced blocking and sword control I'd like to see, humans don't have enough hands to do that, and move, and control the camera, and actively block, and actively direct where their weapon is swinging. So, generically whacking away at someone would work, but if they pull you into interlock it becomes a real weapon fight instead of goofiness. As a melee you'd want to pull people into interlock because that's where the real fun/skill would be had. As a ranged combatant you'd want to stay the fuck away from melee.

When you explain it that way it does sound like a MUCH better idea. I sweat the sound of that in a pretty huge way, actually.

Esfires
05-08-2012, 01:20 PM
What do you want to bet that we still wouldn't be able to keep a Catacombs guild together even in our own damned game?

Mute
05-08-2012, 03:00 PM
I don't have money to spend towards something like this, but I can help with sound. I've got close to full used of any audio equipment we would need for effects, voice overs, etc.

VKhaun
05-08-2012, 05:47 PM
I have been hardcore about level design and secrets for a long time.
I will shell out cash and do level design if we agree on(and the engine can do) active blocking/parrying.

Norska
05-08-2012, 07:53 PM
I'd be willing to help, but I don't really know what I could do. My only "programming experience" is using *nix operating systems and creating a few shit webpages back in the day. I have no computer graphic skills at all either. I have modded a few games for personal enjoyment, but only ones that have released easy to use tools.

I'm sure I could scrunge up some cash if need be.

So yeah, if you could find something for me to do, I'd be down for it :p

Wulf
05-08-2012, 08:01 PM
I'd be willing to help, but I don't really know what I could do. My only "programming experience" is using *nix operating systems and creating a few shit webpages back in the day. I have no computer graphic skills at all either. I have modded a few games for personal enjoyment, but only ones that have released easy to use tools.

I'm sure I could scrunge up some cash if need be.

So yeah, if you could find something for me to do, I'd be down for it :p

Pretty much this.

Taolas
05-08-2012, 08:46 PM
Yeah, I've been thinking an interlock system is the way to go as well. Make fun combat mechanics that can be used instead of circle strafing crap. You could totally make an agile class that uses interlock and mobility skills. Spells have been rather lacking in many games as well, but I wouldn't expect the project to jump into trying to do them well. Tons of works, I'd imagine.

As for what I could do... I could help with designing systems/mechanics and writing them up in a way that's easy to translate into a programming language. I also have experience with world design using hammer, but doubt I'd have much time to contribute in that regard.

Zavon
05-09-2012, 07:29 AM
I don't know that I could do anything useful either, but I would be willing to learn programming.

As to the game itself: personally, i would love to see something counter rpg culture. I assume, the game would be called catacombs; thus a game centered on undead or monster races fighting against the forces above would be awesome imo. Factions would be purely racial based, but not uniform. So like tne area controlled by ghouls wouldn't be friendly to orcs,but maybe goblins and trolls. Goblins might hate the trolls and so on.

The world could feature massive labyrinths

Andile™
05-09-2012, 08:15 AM
We could design a raid where we get to farm Norska over and over and over, in a futile attempt to acquire the highly-sought-after bind-on-acquire cosmetic-only Landshark Fursuit.

Marou
05-09-2012, 08:16 AM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ja51IYJlbws/SwQfOFOSDhI/AAAAAAAADxE/ac2vfE1NYc4/s1600/10csobn.jpg

Mute
05-09-2012, 08:57 AM
We could design a raid where we get to farm Norska over and over and over, in a futile attempt to acquire the highly-sought-after bind-on-acquire cosmetic-only Landshark Fursuit.

I'd also like to see a raid where you can acquire the highly-sought-after bind-on-acquire cosmetic-only Colthee dreads. Only obtainable by slashing weapon head-shot kill.

Which speaking of, I'd like to see call shot make its way into the game. Damage of different body parts causing negative effects when health gets low. Specially if we are going to add in combat locking.

Zavon
05-09-2012, 10:32 AM
Can you imagine a open pvp world, where players can set themselves up as underdark bandits and rob people passing through their territory?

Valec
05-09-2012, 11:50 AM
I don't know that I could do anything useful either, but I would be willing to learn programming.

As to the game itself: personally, i would love to see something counter rpg culture. I assume, the game would be called catacombs; thus a game centered on undead or monster races fighting against the forces above would be awesome imo. Factions would be purely racial based, but not uniform. So like tne area controlled by ghouls wouldn't be friendly to orcs,but maybe goblins and trolls. Goblins might hate the trolls and so on.

The world could feature massive labyrinths

What if it were something like the players actually play the evil races and the NPCs you need to kill are the forces of good? I'd play that MMO. Three factions you say? Three evil fucking factions, I say.


Can you imagine a open pvp world, where players can set themselves up as underdark bandits and rob people passing through their territory?

We tried doing that in Age of Conan and ended up just ganking the shit out of people, since most wouldn't pay anyway. After awhile, you just stop asking, and murder who you can.


Which speaking of, I'd like to see call shot make its way into the game. Damage of different body parts causing negative effects when health gets low. Specially if we are going to add in combat locking.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. The only way i'd be okay with it is if you want to attempt locational damage, you do it at a great penalty, effectively making it more of a desperation attack than anything else. I don't know, I just don't see this as something that would make the game more enjoyable for players overall.

Sillywilly
05-09-2012, 12:05 PM
What if it were something like the players actually play the evil races and the NPCs you need to kill are the forces of good? I'd play that MMO. Three factions you say? Three evil fucking factions, I say.


Are you emo?

Valec
05-09-2012, 12:07 PM
Are you emo?

No, I figured the players would be Christian and the NPCs would be your average non-bible thumper.

Norska
05-09-2012, 01:00 PM
I'm not sure how I feel about this. The only way i'd be okay with it is if you want to attempt locational damage, you do it at a great penalty, effectively making it more of a desperation attack than anything else. I don't know, I just don't see this as something that would make the game more enjoyable for players overall.

I'm with mute, "called shots" should be implimented for ranged combat, but not as say a skill you activate. If you nail somebody in the arms enough times in a row, they get debuff A, in the legs enough times, they get debuff B. This keeps it interesting for ranged combat, because it won't have the same umph behind it that the melee combat will. IE, you're not going to be getting in duels, blocking, counter attacking etc, you are just shooting. But if that guy has a small shield that covers his arms chest and head, you can pelt his legs over and over and eventually cripple him. It could also introduce group ranged focus fire, instead of 1 guy needing to hit the same spot say 3 times, if a 3 archers all fired at the same spot they'd give that debuff after 3 shots landed, which would basically be right away.

I also like this Dungeon Keeper esque idea. Evil factions that are battling it out pvp wise for control of the underground, while killing pve wise the good guys trying to "exterminate them" or some such, and exploring vast labyrinths.

Valec
05-09-2012, 01:20 PM
I'm with mute, "called shots" should be implimented for ranged combat, but not as say a skill you activate. If you nail somebody in the arms enough times in a row, they get debuff A, in the legs enough times, they get debuff B. This keeps it interesting for ranged combat, because it won't have the same umph behind it that the melee combat will. IE, you're not going to be getting in duels, blocking, counter attacking etc, you are just shooting. But if that guy has a small shield that covers his arms chest and head, you can pelt his legs over and over and eventually cripple him. It could also introduce group ranged focus fire, instead of 1 guy needing to hit the same spot say 3 times, if a 3 archers all fired at the same spot they'd give that debuff after 3 shots landed, which would basically be right away.

Well, in an action oriented RPG, this system would definitely make sense. Similar to how Fallout 3/New Vegas functioned. I suppose I was thinking of it in more of a traditional mmorpg sense, which is obviously not what we're going for here.

Zoobi
05-09-2012, 01:25 PM
I'm with mute, "called shots" should be implimented for ranged combat, but not as say a skill you activate. If you nail somebody in the arms enough times in a row, they get debuff A, in the legs enough times, they get debuff B. This keeps it interesting for ranged combat, because it won't have the same umph behind it that the melee combat will. IE, you're not going to be getting in duels, blocking, counter attacking etc, you are just shooting. But if that guy has a small shield that covers his arms chest and head, you can pelt his legs over and over and eventually cripple him. It could also introduce group ranged focus fire, instead of 1 guy needing to hit the same spot say 3 times, if a 3 archers all fired at the same spot they'd give that debuff after 3 shots landed, which would basically be right away.

I also like this Dungeon Keeper esque idea. Evil factions that are battling it out pvp wise for control of the underground, while killing pve wise the good guys trying to "exterminate them" or some such, and exploring vast labyrinths.

The problem I see with implementing this is that if it takes more than once to cripple someone, why not just through them through the head/chest instead? Much more worthwhile just to kill the SOB than to try to cripple him and THEN kill him.

Valec
05-09-2012, 01:27 PM
The problem I see with implementing this is that if it takes more than once to cripple someone, why not just through them through the head/chest instead? Much more worthwhile just to kill the SOB than to try to cripple him and THEN kill him.

That depends on how many attacks it actually takes to kill somebody. I have to assume that since this is ultimately an MMO(RPG?) it will be more than one. If it's upwards of 6-10(especially if this is the sort of game where someone can heal in some way), then crippling them in some fashion could certainly be worthwhile.

Norska
05-09-2012, 01:31 PM
what I'm saying is crippling would happen naturally during your attack if you focus fire, you'd still be doing the same dmg (perhaps not, hit location dmg dependant on armor, someones in full plate chest but forgot his pants? yah, legs should take more dmg etc etc, offshoot concept)

So you're killing the guy regardless, but if you hit him a bunch in one spot you get an added effect AND still kill the guy. Even in games like Mount and Blade, if you are armored up you can survive a good chunk of arrow shots. So if it takes 5 shots to kill you, and first 3 hit your leg because the archer had some sense, your now limping forward instead of running making those last two shots much easier to land.

Sillywilly
05-09-2012, 02:51 PM
No, I figured the players would be Christian and the NPCs would be your average non-bible thumper.

That sounds like butthurt. Were you not liked as a kid?


what I'm saying is crippling would happen naturally during your attack if you focus fire, you'd still be doing the same dmg (perhaps not, hit location dmg dependant on armor, someones in full plate chest but forgot his pants? yah, legs should take more dmg etc etc, offshoot concept)

So you're killing the guy regardless, but if you hit him a bunch in one spot you get an added effect AND still kill the guy. Even in games like Mount and Blade, if you are armored up you can survive a good chunk of arrow shots. So if it takes 5 shots to kill you, and first 3 hit your leg because the archer had some sense, your now limping forward instead of running making those last two shots much easier to land.

This is all targetted stuff right? Like FPS aiming system for archery and what not?

Valec
05-09-2012, 05:48 PM
That sounds like butthurt. Were you not liked as a kid?

In the interests of the entire board, I beg you to expand your repertoire of insults. May as well just go herpderpedoo.

Also, don't bother adding any input to this thread, you really don't know anything about video games.

Norska
05-10-2012, 12:03 AM
This is all targetted stuff right? Like FPS aiming system for archery and what not?

Yeah, that's how I pocture it at least. I'd want something like mount and blade, or the video marou showed, but better. With magic.

Sillywilly
05-10-2012, 02:57 AM
In the interests of the entire board, I beg you to expand your repertoire of insults. May as well just go herpderpedoo.

Also, don't bother adding any input to this thread, you really don't know anything about video games.

I'm sorry if I get fat and ugly and develop a social disorder will you not hate me anymore?

PS your 2nd statement is exactly what's wrong with the gaming industry today and why the people of the boards are so unsatisfied with it's current state. Fat, ugly virgin nerds who assume they are good at video game design just because, hell, they're not good at anything else there has to be something out there for them right?

WRONG.


Yeah, that's how I pocture it at least. I'd want something like mount and blade, or the video marou showed, but better. With magic.

I've been dying to play something like that forever now in a medi-evil setting. I'm much better at FPS than I am at MMOs mostly because number crunching and cool down management bores the shit out of me. The GCD in Star Wars makes it feel like a stop frame animation fight.

VKhaun
05-10-2012, 06:05 AM
I pull my funding if Silly is involved.

Zavon
05-10-2012, 07:01 AM
I don't think there should be any healing abilities at all. Healing is the biggest contributer to the cookie cutter role system we encounter in every game. In order to preserve realism, and constant danger, I think it should be completely disallowed.

Instead the focus would be on blocking through shield use or wards, and avoidance. You take a lot of damage in a fight? Drink a having potion after or rest.

Also in line with that, part of what made EQ so awesome to explore, was environmental effects. The darkness should be a problem, unless you can see in it. Traps should be a real and dangerous thing. Players should have interesting abilities likr detect magic, see in the dark, or wall climbing to offset hazards. I loved getting to use those kinds of abilities, much like a rogue in DDO-- "hold on guys I got this".

Boxy Brown
05-10-2012, 11:46 AM
I love the idea of the called shots. If you hit someone enough times in the arm they get a combat slow applied and if you hit them enough times in the legs you can kite them around and lol in their faces. And maybe if you headshot them enough times their screen goes blurry from blood in the eyes. I also like the idea of bloodline champions/LOMM style magic. No targeted nonsense, aim at the ground or in a direction and hope you don't get outplayed.

Marou, how do you want to approach gear? I'm of the opinion that crafted gear needs to be on par whatever is available from PvE or PvP. Also, if I get the internship I'm gunning for I'm going to have A LOT of spare time on my hands this summer, and I could definitely learn whatever coding nonsense or development tools you're using (something I've done twice before) and help you out.

Marou
05-10-2012, 12:04 PM
I love the idea of the called shots. If you hit someone enough times in the arm they get a combat slow applied and if you hit them enough times in the legs you can kite them around and lol in their faces. And maybe if you headshot them enough times their screen goes blurry from blood in the eyes. I also like the idea of bloodline champions/LOMM style magic. No targeted nonsense, aim at the ground or in a direction and hope you don't get outplayed.

Marou, how do you want to approach gear? I'm of the opinion that crafted gear needs to be on par whatever is available from PvE or PvP. Also, if I get the internship I'm gunning for I'm going to have A LOT of spare time on my hands this summer, and I could definitely learn whatever coding nonsense or development tools you're using (something I've done twice before) and help you out.

I'm am going to try and find the time to play around with the Skyrim CK this weekend with the hack that allows you to bind custom code to the executable to play around with some ideas before I drop cash. With respect to gear I don't want to get ahead of myself. I want to figure out (how) active combat can be if it requires a 150MS ping or less of all players (or .3 second server update pulses). Eg, how fast can a sword swing to give someone the opportunity to block or counter if you can be a total of a 3rd of a second behind them? This is the type of research I need to work on to scope out in my head the programming effort required to do the types of things I want to do. I'm going to do this research by binding timer code to actions (like swinging a weapon) in Skyrim and then figure out a somewhat graceful solution to handle dropped packets.

Those findings will determine exactly how deep the rabbit hole can go with respect to hitboxes, etc.

Zavon
05-10-2012, 12:24 PM
With regards to gear, I think it should be completely statless. Gear upgrades are strictly cosmetic, with the exception of say a single "enchantment" on an item. Whats the difference between a mace and a dagger? A mace has more reach, hits harder, and does blunt damage. A dagger is faster, and it doesn't wear you out as fast. If you wear plate armor, you resist damage better but it wears you out a lot quicker and are slower in combat.

In this way, equipment becomes more like an FPS. To truly break the gear whore mentality of theme parks, I think that's what it would take. Tons of weapon and armor choices that have drawbacks. Sure dwarven plate is,stronger than other kind. Guess what, its heavy as fuck. You finally get yourself a set, and then build up your character around using heavy armors and axes.

Magic could work the same way. No mana bars, or any of that same lame shit. You want to cast spells? Better stock up on bat guano to cast your powerful fireball. So, when you have to use it, its a tough choice. Critical to breaking the mold, and adding danger back into games imo

Valec
05-10-2012, 01:40 PM
With regards to gear, I think it should be completely statless. Gear upgrades are strictly cosmetic, with the exception of say a single "enchantment" on an item. Whats the difference between a mace and a dagger? A mace has more reach, hits harder, and does blunt damage. A dagger is faster, and it doesn't wear you out as fast. If you wear plate armor, you resist damage better but it wears you out a lot quicker and are slower in combat.

In this way, equipment becomes more like an FPS. To truly break the gear whore mentality of theme parks, I think that's what it would take. Tons of weapon and armor choices that have drawbacks. Sure dwarven plate is,stronger than other kind. Guess what, its heavy as fuck. You finally get yourself a set, and then build up your character around using heavy armors and axes.

Magic could work the same way. No mana bars, or any of that same lame shit. You want to cast spells? Better stock up on bat guano to cast your powerful fireball. So, when you have to use it, its a tough choice. Critical to breaking the mold, and adding danger back into games imo

I really dislike the idea of components, at least for every spell. I also perceive it as a weakness that melee and likely don't have to suffer(running out of components in the middle of a fight). The only way I personally would agree with this idea is if you only required components for the more powerful spells.



I'm sorry if I get fat and ugly and develop a social disorder will you not hate me anymore?

PS your 2nd statement is exactly what's wrong with the gaming industry today and why the people of the boards are so unsatisfied with it's current state. Fat, ugly virgin nerds who assume they are good at video game design just because, hell, they're not good at anything else there has to be something out there for them right?

WRONG.



I've been dying to play something like that forever now in a medi-evil setting. I'm much better at FPS than I am at MMOs mostly because number crunching and cool down management bores the shit out of me. The GCD in Star Wars makes it feel like a stop frame animation fight.


I never claimed to be good at video game design. No wonder you Christians are so fucked up, how are you going to interpret a 3,000 year old document when you can't even understand basic english? Also, i've seen the picture you showed, you are in fact fat and ugly and obviously have a social disorder since you can't refrain from telling people they have assbergers non-stop.

The point was, you're the last person i'd EVER want to see involved in game design for any game i'd be interested in. Your complete lack of understand of any of the systems involved is mindboggling. You love damned near every game you play until it finally slaps you in the face what everybody else already knew.

No, my friend, you know nothing about gaming. You do your job as a mindless consumer quite well, though. I recommend you stick to it.


PS, even though you are fat, ugly, and have a social disorder, I still don't like you. Believe it or not, it has nothing to do with the fact that you're Christian. You're only made fun of for that because of how stupidly dogmatic you are yet completely unchristianlike.

Zavon
05-10-2012, 01:57 PM
Its hard to fully express thoughts on my cell, but yeah I meant for powerful spells. Like, for instance, say you find a super rare mushroom that allows you to make a very deadly posion. If your character is trained in that kind of thing, they could them use,it to murder someone important.

The idea being to encourage exploration and trade via magic and crafting.

Valec
05-10-2012, 02:13 PM
Its hard to fully express thoughts on my cell, but yeah I meant for powerful spells. Like, for instance, say you find a super rare mushroom that allows you to make a very deadly posion. If your character is trained in that kind of thing, they could them use,it to murder someone important.

The idea being to encourage exploration and trade via magic and crafting.

Well, I think the other real problem we arrive at here, is that a spell that is that difficult to cast would have to be powerful indeed, would it not? I see it as a very tricky thing to balance, and I personally don't think rare components is the way to do it, because people will still be pretty pissed when they are assaulted by your uber-spell and have no way to defend themselves from it(but it's okay because you had to find a super rare mushroom to do it!).

I think that's sort of a tricky thing to really flesh out. I think ultimately, the components would have to be fairly common, and the spell not excessively powerful. In fact, it may be better to simply make the components purchasable from an NPC, but limit the amount a player can carry, so they have to use it tactically. In this case, the power of the spells would most certainly have to be in line with everybody else's damage though, because it would stand to reason any 'wizard' you run into will probably have the components(or a really good chance of it).

In the end I think the best way to encourage exploration is things like crafting(gathering and such) as well as creating content that you won't find any other way but by exploring, like unique encounters which would include some sort of reward. I don't feel like any game should sort of force players to be explorers if they don't want to be, or even give them a nudge in the direction, when there are plenty of people who already love that aspect.

Taolas
05-10-2012, 02:47 PM
I think spell components can be done right. A water-mage needs water, period. The more powerful they are, the more water they can use. They can carry around water with them and continually reuse it, but also when they're in a wet environment, they'll have a larger resource pool to pull from. Naturally being stronger in certain climates/areas. They could have a drawing spell to charge up their supply, at later levels even pulling water from their opponents' bodies. With that the component thing isn't about limited reagents, it's about determining how much you can do in combat at once and how fast. Do you build up your supply for a big spell, continually use small spells, does it take awhile to reclaim your resource after certain spells?

A fire mage could start fires or something to build his supply. You could even have him exert a force on the fire around him that makes the fire draw towards the mage, for effect.

You may be able to describe the system visually too and not need UI space for it. Like fire mages have a fire staff, and how much it is actually on fire determines your basic supply.

Mute
05-10-2012, 03:05 PM
A component system for magic could work, but only if we are walking down a classless alley. Requiring components for mage spells would be annoying when you can't do shit without spells. I don't want to have to run to the fucking forest after every 5 pvp battles to restock on casting supplies. Hell I don't want to make pit stops at a merchant to be useful either. It's a cute system, but imho its not a fun system and sets up a playground where the people who have money will just shell out for all the components they need, and everyone else will just be frustrated.


I think Zav's idea for no item bonus's would be interesting, specially if it means we could introduce a wiiiiide variety of weapons that have different combat traits.

Zoobi
05-10-2012, 03:07 PM
I'd love it if the game could step out of the fantasy realm. I can't be the only one who's tired of wizards and dragons. It doesn't even have to be sci-fi or anything like that. It'd be fairly cool(in my opinion) if it were set in modern day and you have to fight off the forces of heaven and hell(ala Diablo, but without the ultra-powerful prime evils, or the angiris council) in a hellgate:london sort of way. Instead of being underground like HG:L you could actually have to scavenge towns and whatnot above ground for supplies to make guns/bows/etc. You could also have multiple factions that the player can be involved in that are at war for supplies and territory.

Norska
05-10-2012, 03:53 PM
i like taolos' idea for components. The concept of a mage needing and building up his specific elemental power makes sense, and is better than running to a merchant/searching for hours for a regent. It could also add a dynamic tension to battles with his visual ques. You see a fire mages staff slowly get more and more engulfed in flame. It's a raging inferno now. You know you're fucked because you left him alone for too long, he's at his strongest because of a tactical error your group made. It was nothing hidden in his inventory, it was a direct reaction to both yours and his playstyle, and everyone could see what was happening.

Then we can throw in "nodes" sprinkled throughout the world, lakes for a water mage, volcano for fire etc. Places that you know if you engage that mage there, they will constantly be at their most powerful. Would be very difficult to balance though I think (the nodes idea vs everyday combat)

As far as items go, I agree with boxy that crafting should be just as viable wholesale as drops/pvp etc. Honestly, I view DAoC pre atlantis as the pinacle of gear mentality. If we could capture something like that again, where crafting truly mattered, and had crafters searching out dangerous places for resources not so much for a power upgrade, but for a cosmetic one. To get their specific look, or style.

I also like the "low fantasy" approach to armor and weapons. Let them stand on their own, like Zavon is saying. An Axe hurts because it's a giant fucking blade attached to a stick. Not because Merlin the Magically enchanted it and gave it to a fish to hold for him.

The concept of no in fight healing would also fit the type of combat feel we seem to be going for. If we want combat to truly have consequences, that each swing, block and spell cast is skill based and dangerous, we can't have a way to magically reverse it. I'd go so far to say that something akin to power word: shield in our universe would require the mage casting it to be rooted, and channel it. That type o spell should be considered an incredibly powerful damage reduction. Imagin having that kind of support, you no longer have to worry about blocking or parrying and can unload with devastating attacks. But it must have consequences, it's a team move, by doing that your mage is rendered helpless, a smart opponent will try and distract you while the rest of his team switches focuse to the mage. Remember, first person as well. That mage has a much harder time seeing what's around him, same with the warrior he is buffing.

(I'm using mage and warrior as descriptors, not as classes, just to say what they are trying to accomplish role wise in the fight)

Boxy Brown
05-10-2012, 04:10 PM
I like the idea of components. But for the love of god, don't make it things like, "Requires 3 Mushroom Caps, 2 Iron Shards and a Rune of Undoing." Keep it basic.

Think bending from Avatar: The Last Airbender.

If you want to use your fire spells, you have to carry a torch around and manipulate that fire, or you need to be near a campfire or something. If you want to cast a water spell, you need a flask of some kind on your person, or you need to be near a river or pond.

Zavon
05-10-2012, 04:35 PM
Yeah we are all on the same page it seems. Here's what I'm thinking:

Everyone has two skill groups that they get 50 points in each:

1. Combat Tree: This is your core skill group. Every tree will have 20 points in it. So, you could theoretically max out 2 trees and a half of another one. All combat related abilities will be completely lumped in here. You'll have things like: Light Armor, Heavy Armor, Shields, Axes, Spears, Swords, Crossbows, Bows, Unarmed, Hammers, Chains, Thrown weapons, Dodging, Staves, and access to one racial tree: Vampirism (ghouls), Bloodlust (orcs), Mutations (Mutants), etc.

2. Tradeskill Trees: This is your crafting and magic. Here you can prepare and store items like Armors, weapons, or posions... But also things like Blood Magic, Illusion, Necromancy, Elementalism, Shamanism etc. Spells should be about preparation. You save up enough components and cast a spell to summon a zombie. Now, you have an undead minion that will give you a combat advantage. Or, you use up the water you have on your person to allow yourself to breathe underwater for 15 minutes.

Much like Norska talked about healing negating everything-- Magic is too often an escape for skill in other areas as well. Its my opinion that it is something that should enhance combat, not completely replace it. Your character can be a Vampire Blood Mage Knight if you want. You can be a Shaman Monk Alchemist Troll if you want. This kind of diversity will make for even more awesome combat, and more importantly individualization.

Now as far as progression goes, I think the system I just described would work best as a "use it over time" system. The more time you spend using a longsword, and casting elementalism spells to enhance your weapons and armor the better you get at them. Each monster killed or spell cast/item created will have an associated experience point in place. You have to save up more points to spend on different things. Now here is what I think would be the interesting part: Say you decide that you don't like swords any more and want to switch to axes. Well, now you are going to need a lot of points to max out the other tree. So, you chose swords as something you will "neglect" and as the points decrease in that tree you gain experience faster for another tree.

The more points you spend in your racial, the more extreme your character looks.

Zavon
05-10-2012, 04:49 PM
Some of you have mentioned good and evil (or light vs dark), and I think that those are pitfalls of "cookie-cutter" mmos. I think good and evil should be relative and not at all important to anything.

Take for instance, a world that was rich in peace. Man was doing well there was no real war to speak of and the kingdoms and people were (generally) content. Suddenly, though, and without warning the (whatever you want to call them) race unleashed a massive meteor storm upon humanity. As the twisted magic rained down it forever altered the landscape. Men were twisted into new and horrible forms, and forced to escape underground. They discovered vast labyrinths and had to learn to fight for resources in caverns. The world above is twisted and dangerous with monstrous mutant creatures. Except of course, for the area of the "Race of Light" that had their mountain valley city state preserved from the chaos that they unleashed on man. No one knows why they did it, but all of the new species of humanity ache for vengeance.

Taolas
05-10-2012, 05:18 PM
I wonder if you could make an mmo system from the bottom up without health points, where if you get stabbed in the face you die. Then have skills/passives that help prevent that, along with helmets/armor. Though if it's just helmets needing to get damage/knocked off before you can stab them in the face, that's pretty much back to the health point system.

Marou
05-10-2012, 05:29 PM
I wonder if you could make an mmo system from the bottom up without health points, where if you get stabbed in the face you die. Then have skills/passives that help prevent that, along with helmets/armor. Though if it's just helmets needing to get damage/knocked off before you can stab them in the face, that's pretty much back to the health point system.

I've always wanted to see a horizontal rather than vertical progression system. Designing that would be a bitch though. Eg, level 1? You have 100 hps. Level 500? You have 100 hps.

Mute
05-10-2012, 05:43 PM
I'd love it if the game could step out of the fantasy realm. I can't be the only one who's tired of wizards and dragons. It doesn't even have to be sci-fi or anything like that. It'd be fairly cool(in my opinion) if it were set in modern day and you have to fight off the forces of heaven and hell(ala Diablo, but without the ultra-powerful prime evils, or the angiris council) in a hellgate:london sort of way. Instead of being underground like HG:L you could actually have to scavenge towns and whatnot above ground for supplies to make guns/bows/etc. You could also have multiple factions that the player can be involved in that are at war for supplies and territory.


"Zombie-pocalyps" mmo? Weapons and armor would all be found/crafted, whatever created the zombies/creepy crawlies left power that could be tapped into for "spells" which could be the reason why you need components for "casting". "Guilds" would essentially just be camps of people.

I mean for how much everyone loves zombies, i'm surprised there isn't a zombie mmo already.

Zoobi
05-10-2012, 05:53 PM
"Zombie-pocalyps" mmo? Weapons and armor would all be found/crafted, whatever created the zombies/creepy crawlies left power that could be tapped into for "spells" which could be the reason why you need components for "casting". "Guilds" would essentially just be camps of people.

I mean for how much everyone loves zombies, i'm surprised there isn't a zombie mmo already.

This could be a possibility too. Anything but Wizards and Dragons.

Norska
05-10-2012, 06:19 PM
"Zombie-pocalyps" mmo? Weapons and armor would all be found/crafted, whatever created the zombies/creepy crawlies left power that could be tapped into for "spells" which could be the reason why you need components for "casting". "Guilds" would essentially just be camps of people.

I mean for how much everyone loves zombies, i'm surprised there isn't a zombie mmo already.

I could see it, make it sci fi too. Alien race dsicovers earth, decides they want the planet for their own use and proceeds to release a hand ful of nano virus bombs around the planet but they have unforseen consequences on our physiology. Instead of just killing us outright it dfrives people insane and allows them to function far beyond what would normally incapacitate a human. A scarce few of the populations physiology throws off the would be death virus and they actually form a symbiotic relationship with it, producing "magic". Perhaps it allows them to interact with the world on an atomic level.

Yeah, the magic part needs to be fleshed out. but I like the basic premise. Then again, I can think of a hundred different settings where this hypothetical mmo would rock, ranging from high fantasy to hardcore scifi. The setting is almost inconsequential if we get the right core gameplay concepts

Valec
05-10-2012, 11:32 PM
I've always wanted to see a horizontal rather than vertical progression system. Designing that would be a bitch though. Eg, level 1? You have 100 hps. Level 500? You have 100 hps.

I feel like this can never be satisfying for the player. You can call it progression all you want, but a player does not feel like he has progressed in combat in any way when it's just as easy to die at level 1 as 500. It's the reason games have gotten to the point where having thousands of HP is commonplace. I know nobody likes it, but the carrot on the string trick is more or less rewarding to most of the people likely to pick up this game, since they can witness meaningful progression.

Now alternate methods of progression are possible, but they really have to provide some sort of oomph. Something that makes it actually worth your while, so it's not really horizontal at all, because in one way or another, your power has increased, even if it's only in the sense that you have more tools at your disposal(and not necessarily greater damage/damage mitigation).

If you guys can come up with a way to make a system like that which also makes the player feel as though his work amounts to something.. that would be epic.

Taolas
05-11-2012, 01:27 AM
Players might have thousands of HP, but enemies do more damage too. Isn't it harder to die at level 1 than it is at level 100, usually? Unless of course you're level 1 fighting level 100s. Fighting equal levels, I'd expect the game to only become harder or more complex as you level. The real progression/reward comes from more spells and stuff. Or are you saying just having a higher level enemy in the world, one that you can level up to and compete with, is progression? And likewise, lower level enemies you can outdo as you level. Seems like fake treadmill shtuff. I'm gravitating towards the GW2 way, where all content is always relevant for the player, because levels are equalized. You still get traits and skills as you level, to expand your character and get a bit more powerful or complex.

I think overall a character simply getting better at swordsmanship (more skills), because he fights with a sword, is progression enough. Throw in secondary things like sword+magic, and you're set. Balancing progression is still a problem though, I guess ><

Imagine an MMO where you could tick a box at character creations that says "Frontline Soldier", then hit create and *poof* you're at a camp on the front lines of a battle, ready to tear some stuff up. Not a newbie battle, or a high level battle, just a battle. You have enough basic skills to hold your own. When you eventually become a veteran you'd have skills to expand your tactics and take more risks, stick your neck out, raid enemy camps, etc. GW2 is like that a little bit with WvW pvp.

I realize there's the irony of GW2 giving you a ton of hp at level 80. I don't think that was necessary... I mean it scales as your character does and all.

dr.wang
05-11-2012, 03:45 AM
I like the idea of player run cities maybe start off with a few premade countries players can start in and then introduce a new continent that allows for player colonies under whatever country the players are from slowly introduce more things that allows the cities to work more independently and than BANG have a world event that allows players to try and take over their home countries let the wars go on until the entire damn thing is player run.
And have raids and shit for people who like the lore.

Sillywilly
05-11-2012, 09:38 AM
I never claimed to be good at video game design. No wonder you Christians are so fucked up, how are you going to interpret a 3,000 year old document when you can't even understand basic english? Also, i've seen the picture you showed, you are in fact fat and ugly and obviously have a social disorder since you can't refrain from telling people they have assbergers non-stop.

The point was, you're the last person i'd EVER want to see involved in game design for any game i'd be interested in. Your complete lack of understand of any of the systems involved is mindboggling. You love damned near every game you play until it finally slaps you in the face what everybody else already knew.

No, my friend, you know nothing about gaming. You do your job as a mindless consumer quite well, though. I recommend you stick to it.


PS, even though you are fat, ugly, and have a social disorder, I still don't like you. Believe it or not, it has nothing to do with the fact that you're Christian. You're only made fun of for that because of how stupidly dogmatic you are yet completely unchristianlike.

You don't like people like me for 2 reasons:

1st for the same reason liberals don't like Ann Coulter. Because every time you open your ignorant, uneducated, butt hurt mouth I hand you your fucking ass using your own "science" against you instead of quoting the Bible. Never quoted the Bible as a source in ANY of my debates. Ever. That's me. Burns your fat ass doesn't it slick? It's gotta suck to have all your sheep minded propaganda and best "comebacks" shut down simply because I won't play to your stereotype lol. Fail is fail fatty.

2nd, you're pathetic in every way. I shit turds with more value to this planet and it's people than the little socially awkward deviants such as yourself will ever amount too. You're fat, ignorant, butt hurt, socially fucked up, not good at anything, and you're ALONE because of it.

I don't hold number 2 against you though. If I were you and you were me I'd fucking hate myself enough to project it at the other person too. And honestly, you can't totally blame the fucked up kid either. Piss poor parenting is usually the root of a fuck up such as yourself. So I do feel a little sorry for you. At times.



Some of you have mentioned good and evil (or light vs dark), and I think that those are pitfalls of "cookie-cutter" mmos. I think good and evil should be relative and not at all important to anything.

Take for instance, a world that was rich in peace. Man was doing well there was no real war to speak of and the kingdoms and people were (generally) content. Suddenly, though, and without warning the (whatever you want to call them) race unleashed a massive meteor storm upon humanity. As the twisted magic rained down it forever altered the landscape. Men were twisted into new and horrible forms, and forced to escape underground. They discovered vast labyrinths and had to learn to fight for resources in caverns. The world above is twisted and dangerous with monstrous mutant creatures. Except of course, for the area of the "Race of Light" that had their mountain valley city state preserved from the chaos that they unleashed on man. No one knows why they did it, but all of the new species of humanity ache for vengeance.

I agree 100% and think that's what made DAoC so cool. You had 3 realms but neither was the the evil Darth Vadar or the wicked Dark Elves. To Midgard the Albs and Hibs were evil. To Albion the Mids and Hibs were evil. Etc. You were either the light fighting dark pagans, the free spirited pagans fighting the oppression of the light, or the strength of arms who believed you could "keep what you kill" and that was ok. It wasn't so black and white as Nazis vs Allies. Whichever side you were on was the good side if you wanted to see it that way. Or could be the bad side if you wanted to think of it that way.


"Zombie-pocalyps" mmo? Weapons and armor would all be found/crafted, whatever created the zombies/creepy crawlies left power that could be tapped into for "spells" which could be the reason why you need components for "casting". "Guilds" would essentially just be camps of people.

I mean for how much everyone loves zombies, i'm surprised there isn't a zombie mmo already.

That would be fucking sexy. Everyday gear we use for shit like football practice or extreme cycling could be "gear" or armor used as protection. The more advanced/rare stuff could be things especially crafted for zombie warfare rather than just stuff you could get raiding a sports store.

Fallen Earth meets Left for Dead?


I don't think there should be any healing abilities at all. Healing is the biggest contributer to the cookie cutter role system we encounter in every game. In order to preserve realism, and constant danger, I think it should be completely disallowed.

Finally someone agrees. I hated being a stealther in DAoC and not actually being able to take anyone by surprise because of healing. I always thought it was ridiculous that I was an assassin but back stabbing someone wouldn't do any good unless they were a solo straggler simply because a healer could save them. The occasional assination of a healer who's group was completely lost in the chaos of combat was rewarding but rare.

Valec
05-11-2012, 10:42 AM
You don't like people like me for 2 reasons:

1st for the same reason liberals don't like Ann Coulter. Because every time you open your ignorant, uneducated, butt hurt mouth I hand you your fucking ass using your own "science" against you instead of quoting the Bible. Never quoted the Bible as a source in ANY of my debates. Ever. That's me. Burns your fat ass doesn't it slick? It's gotta suck to have all your sheep minded propaganda and best "comebacks" shut down simply because I won't play to your stereotype lol. Fail is fail fatty.

2nd, you're pathetic in every way. I shit turds with more value to this planet and it's people than the little socially awkward deviants such as yourself will ever amount too. You're fat, ignorant, butt hurt, socially fucked up, not good at anything, and you're ALONE because of it.

Literally everything you just said was stupid, pointless, incorrect, and classic Sillywilly. Don't you have some funeral or gay marriage to protest?

You've literally never "handed me my fucking ass using 'science'". By the way, I love how you quoted science. You're just an ignorant creationist moron who really has no place here. You're literally the laughing stock of the board and you're kept around for amusement. Certainly your stance in any debate is never taken seriously.

It's worth noting that I don't hate you, Sillywilly. I feel really, really bad for you, and anyone you know in real life.

Sillywilly
05-11-2012, 10:51 AM
Literally everything you just said was stupid, pointless, incorrect, and classic Sillywilly. Don't you have some funeral or gay marriage to protest?

You've literally never "handed me my fucking ass using 'science'". By the way, I love how you quoted science. You're just an ignorant creationist moron who really has no place here. You're literally the laughing stock of the board and you're kept around for amusement. Certainly your stance in any debate is never taken seriously.

It's worth noting that I don't hate you, Sillywilly. I feel really, really bad for you, and anyone you know in real life.

I've spanked your ass many times homeboy. But keep telling yourself whatever helps you sleep at night when counting fudge rounds doesn't work.

Is your last statement a plagiarism of mine? :confused: That's lame.

Valec
05-11-2012, 11:11 AM
I've spanked your ass many times homeboy. But keep telling yourself whatever helps you sleep at night when counting fudge rounds doesn't work.

Is your last statement a plagiarism of mine? :confused: That's lame.

You'll have to show me how that had anything to do with a single thing you said, anywhere, ever. But okay, you're right, you're awesome and win all the time because you're a super cool bodybuilding ladiesman nerd. Are you an astronaut too?

Boxy Brown
05-11-2012, 12:02 PM
I'm a sexy nerd.

Sazz is another one.

We exist.

Anyway, I like all these ideas.

Esfires
05-11-2012, 03:55 PM
I propose that Sillywilly write any NPC dialogue. That man is a poet.

Zoobi
05-11-2012, 04:11 PM
I propose that Sillywilly write any NPC dialogue. That man is a poet.

Too much assburgers.

Draconian
05-11-2012, 04:12 PM
Too many cooks in the kitchen, IMO. Twenty people will spout for days how to design a game, I'd be surprised if 3 total ended up doing anything about it.

VKhaun
05-11-2012, 04:58 PM
Too many cooks in the kitchen, IMO. Twenty people will spout for days how to design a game, I'd be surprised if 3 total ended up doing anything about it.

The topic of the thread was doing something about it though. I'm still down for what I said. Cash and level design, as long as there's basic twitch like active blocking, and SillyWilly isn't involved.

Marou
05-11-2012, 05:07 PM
Right, and my main concern is really just proving to myself that I can make fun melee combat (not just design, but actually implement). I don't expect a real game to come out of it because at the end of the day we don't have enough people with technical knowledge.

I think toying with mechanics in a game world that will never likely be finished would be fun. Making an actual game is a PITA.

Sillywilly
05-11-2012, 05:07 PM
The topic of the thread was doing something about it though. I'm still down for what I said. Cash and level design, as long as there's basic twitch like active blocking, and SillyWilly isn't involved.

Cry baby.

Norska
05-11-2012, 05:35 PM
Too many cooks in the kitchen, IMO. Twenty people will spout for days how to design a game, I'd be surprised if 3 total ended up doing anything about it.

All I can offer is theorycraft, if you'd like I can bow out and keep my opinions to myself as I've already said I don't know jack about any aspect of game design.

Taolas
05-11-2012, 05:43 PM
We were having fun talking about it. No need to take that too seriously. If we want to help Marou do something, then let's find the proper scope to theorycraft in or something.

Zavon
05-11-2012, 08:58 PM
We were having fun talking about it. No need to take that too seriously. If we want to help Marou do something, then let's find the proper scope to theorycraft in or something.

Don't tell me what to do. You know what else is too serious? Your face.

Draconian
05-11-2012, 10:07 PM
Meh, sorry for "taking it too seriously" - just been part of way too many "ZOMG LETS DO THIS" type projects where everyone likes to brainstorm and never actually learn/do anything. Especially when it comes to game design or software projects.

Continue on with the filling of time.

trol
05-12-2012, 01:59 PM
I have been following Hero Engine for a long time. One of my friends was one of their system admins for awhile. Does the $99/year get you access for the full Dev team?

Ero Elohim
05-12-2012, 08:43 PM
Meh, sorry for "taking it too seriously" - just been part of way too many "ZOMG LETS DO THIS" type projects where everyone likes to brainstorm and never actually learn/do anything. Especially when it comes to game design or software projects.

Continue on with the filling of time.

I'd pretty much agree with you and would've posted something similar to what you did eventually. There's a lot of feature creep and daydreaming in this thread, and not a whole lot of feasible, ground-level design.

Sillywilly
05-13-2012, 04:00 AM
I'd pretty much agree with you and would've posted something similar to what you did eventually. There's a lot of feature creep and daydreaming in this thread, and not a whole lot of feasible, ground-level design.

Isn't that how it's supposed to be done? Coming up with all the best liked/loved ideas and day dreamings in the beginning and then trimming it down to what is attainable or economical or feasible, etc?

Andile™
05-13-2012, 06:12 AM
Isn't that how it's supposed to be done? Coming up with all the best liked/loved ideas and day dreamings in the beginning and then trimming it down to what is attainable or economical or feasible, etc?

AKA dreaming of making the next gen MMO and shitting another WOW clone.

Ero Elohim
05-13-2012, 08:28 AM
Isn't that how it's supposed to be done? Coming up with all the best liked/loved ideas and day dreamings in the beginning and then trimming it down to what is attainable or economical or feasible, etc?

Not from my experience. It's good to have a brainstorming session to get it out, but the problem with having large group day dream sessions is that it turns into a huge tug of war between everyone's pet ideas. You end up offending a lot of people when their ideas inevitably get cut. Not to mention that the brainstorming usually occurs after you work out some more basic information (perspective, audience, theme, genre). It's not all bad, but systems ideas aren't that useful when you don't have a clearer picture of what kind of game you're making.

I think it works better when people pitch small game ideas instead of systems. You absolutely need a lead designer who has a vision of how the game will look and play, who's able to design for the audience and not his own ideas, and who can communicate all this to people in a way that leaves no ambiguity. Taking random "dream features" ends up with a disjointed mess of a game because the systems don't support the basic pillars of perspective, audience, and theme that you decide early on. Pitching small core game nuggets gives people a better idea of how it plays and ensures that a single person can lead the design process and filter ideas that don't fit.

I get into a lot of arguments with people during my game design sessions because many people (and I'm not pointing any fingers at anyone here, this is a general statement) don't understand the nuances of putting together a well-crafted game and like to pitch standalone features that they covet without thinking of how it fits into the design as a whole. In short, design systems around the game, not the game around your systems.

Also, I think making an MMO as a first community start up project is getting ahead of ourselves a bit, but that's my own feeling. MMOs are wildly complicated beasts and volunteer projects aren't really the most stable development teams.

Zavon
05-13-2012, 08:41 AM
Wow the crushing weight of reality just hit us all for 9999 damage.

You have been slain.

Ero Elohim
05-13-2012, 08:57 AM
I'm usually kind of a downer when it comes to stuff like this. I've seen a lot of petty fighting cause projects to spiral down the toilet because people got too lofty with ideas without collaborating. Especially if nobody figured out the basics and the you find your ideas don't mesh at all and the game plays like ass. However, game development is an interesting thing and you can always make it work. I've heard stories of absolutely terrible dev processes that produced amazing games. The important part is keeping everyone on the same page. Most of my advice revolves around that.