SWTOR fastest to 1M players in MMO History

[Pyrrhus]

^^ I lol'd.

[Ero Elohim]

Yeah we don't have any idea what resellers will do to the gaming economy. I mean the entire point of becoming a reseller and sucking up all the products available to create a false supply in order to drive up demand and create inflated profits for yourself is a completely new and intriguing strategy. If I were going to invent a word for that kind of business practice I would probably invent a word like, Minuplie. No that might be hard to spell. Moh-nap-erlie. Or that kinda sounds like ebonics.

Ok how about this, MONOPOLY? That should be easy for people to use. My new word for this kind of artifically created supply to create inflated demand will be "monopoly" and I bet if anyone ever actually tried it in the US it would be so bad for the economy and the population that then the gov would probably step in and make it illegal.

Oh wait.............

Holy shit, you don't understand what a monopoly is. That's hilarious.

Listen, if anyone can go and farm materials, craft gear, or put rare drops on the AH, it's not a monopoly. The only way it'd be a monopoly is if the AH resellers somehow used their sums of cash to buy the farming spots and prevent others from ever obtaining the items in the first place. They don't. You're perfectly able to compete with them (by sitting on the AH buying and reselling as well, or by attempting to outproduce them and flood the market). Hell, resellers tended to help me make money. If I had an item the reseller was selling for 100g, I could put it up for 95g and it would sell in an instant to him. I made 95g, he made 5g for being the middleman. We both made a profit. THIS IS HOW ECONOMIES WORK.

Unless Bioware specifically publishes a list of Commandments telling you what is and isn't allowed in their game (and, being honest, this should never be necessary. It's a game and they already have absolute, deity-like control over it because it's a computer program. They can code any rules into it they wish.), this type of behavior is just going to lead to a paranoid playerbase that's frightened to ever leave the glowing, painted line telling them THIS WAY TO THE CONTENT.

[VKhaun]

Yeah we don't have any idea what resellers will do to the gaming economy. I mean the entire point of becoming a reseller and sucking up all the products available to create a false supply in order to drive up demand and create inflated profits for yourself is a completely new and intriguing strategy. If I were going to invent a word for that kind of business practice I would probably invent a word like, Minuplie. No that might be hard to spell. Moh-nap-erlie. Or that kinda sounds like ebonics.

Ok how about this, MONOPOLY? That should be easy for people to use. My new word for this kind of artifically created supply to create inflated demand will be "monopoly" and I bet if anyone ever actually tried it in the US it would be so bad for the economy and the population that then the gov would probably step in and make it illegal.

Oh wait.............

Monopoly doesn't apply because you don't control supply or demand - the game and players do. For it to work at all you need an item that already is found slower than it's bought, forcing your prices to be accepted. And this is not new lol... it's been considered PvP in EVE for a decade and I've done it in multiple games. The first thing I did when a person gave me charity in DDO was buy up the muckbanes and put them all back on the market for a higher price. Some people found them and put them up for less, but supply was less than demand so mine still sold down after the lower priced ones were bought up and still more people wanted them, and that's not my doing. If they were being bought slower than they were being found it never would have worked and if someone didn't want to pay my price they could have gone and gotten the item themselves.

Not a monopoly.
Not new.
Not even an argument, because the point still stands that it's easy to prevent and widely done in other games that this clearly copies. Suddenly banning someone for it instead of putting in the simple measures to stop it is ridiculous.

[Sillywilly]

Holy shit, you don't understand what a monopoly is. That's hilarious.

Listen, if anyone can go and farm materials, craft gear, or put rare drops on the AH, it's not a monopoly. The only way it'd be a monopoly is if the AH resellers somehow used their sums of cash to buy the farming spots and prevent others from ever obtaining the items in the first place. They don't. You're perfectly able to compete with them (by sitting on the AH buying and reselling as well, or by attempting to outproduce them and flood the market). Hell, resellers tended to help me make money. If I had an item the reseller was selling for 100g, I could put it up for 95g and it would sell in an instant to him. I made 95g, he made 5g for being the middleman. We both made a profit. THIS IS HOW ECONOMIES WORK.

Unless Bioware specifically publishes a list of Commandments telling you what is and isn't allowed in their game (and, being honest, this should never be necessary. It's a game and they already have absolute, deity-like control over it because it's a computer program. They can code any rules into it they wish.), this type of behavior is just going to lead to a paranoid playerbase that's frightened to ever leave the glowing, painted line telling them THIS WAY TO THE CONTENT.

You're a short sighted idiot. At any given time there is only a certain amount of crafters and a certain amount of harvesters producing the components for crafting. While there might not be an absolute limit like in real life, IE there is only so much gold buried in the earth that we can mine, there is a "soft cap" limit to how much enters the market every day and there is even the theoretical hard cap of how much resources for crafting can be produced every day due to node spawn timers. Not to mention most MMOs today do a "bind on equip" for even player crafted stuff so it's not like the resources used in making those crafted items is recycleable like alumuninum and other shit is in real life.

So it is a MONOPOLY in that the bulk of resources or crafted goods made from those resources can be exhausted or nearly exhausted in supply and then be be sold at artifically inflated prices. Not to mention alot of the reselling shit that goes on in an MMO is by gold farmers because it's the quickest way for them to make massive amounts of gold. Then stack on top of that the fact that this gold will be sold to players, increasing the supply to a smaller select few who are willing to buy gold and that only inflates prices even more. And unlike the real world there is no limited supply of currency, therefore there is no hardcap on how high prices can actually go. You're completely ignoring the issue of time investment.

You're an idiot.

Gold farmers go out and produce tons of gold in mass. It's not used for any purpose except to produce more gold by running up the prices on the auction hall through reselling. Now take into account that this gold will only be introduced into the market for a select few who choose to buy gold from these sellers. To make matters even worse, when these buyers use this gold to buy overpriced shit on the auction hall this gold goes right back into the hands of the gold farmers which creates an even bigger gap between them and the new player. However this still reduces the value of said gold because the market is being flooded by it. The problem is if you are a new player or a casual player and you aren't willing to buy gold you are stuck grinding out gold the old fashioned way in an economy that is steadily outpacing you at an alarming rate. TIME is the hardcap that allows the virtual monopoly of products on the auction hall.

Also unlike in real life "income" doesn't increase with living standards. Just because prices go up on the auction hall doesn't mean mobs start dropping more money or vendor trash starts selling for more currency.

[Ero Elohim]

You're calling it a monopoly. A monopoly can only exist when a company has absolute control over the creation and distribution of a product. It's empirically impossible to do anything of the sort in an online game, as the creation of the products is inherently available to everyone. The only time you could argue a monopoly was created in WoW is when gold-farmers would roll characters on both sides of a PVP server and have beat squads protecting their farming territory. Monopolies do exist in EVE Online, but controlling resources is sort of the whole endgame there, so it's supported and very difficult to pull off, requiring hundreds of months of manhours in game.

Believe it or not, most prices get to where they are in an MMO through normal supply and demand. I've never seen anyone artificially inflate demand and have it succeed on anything more than a weekend basis. Yes, it's possible to control something for a very short time, but in any decently populated server, other players will respond to the lack of demand and begin farming it to generate income. Unless you already have an insane amount of cash to constantly throw at the problem, those dozens of people farming will eventually flood the market, crowd you out, and you'll be stuck sitting on a pile of depreciated garbage. Auction house moguls "inflating prices" is one of those myths people tell themselves because they don't want to realize the truth:

There's no monopoly caused by buying and reselling goods on an AH. You're free to compete. Start buying and reselling your own goods and take a share of the market. Oh, you don't have the time? Welcome to MMOs: Where time investment is everything. Anyone who invests more time than you into a portion of the game will reap more rewards than you. It is not a genre of skill or finesse. It's a genre for lazy fucks with nothing better to do but grind.

[Boxy Brown]

So it is a MONOPOLY in that the bulk of resources or crafted goods made from those resources can be exhausted or nearly exhausted in supply and then be be sold at artifically inflated prices.

What you're describing isn't a monopoly.

That being said, the point still remains that people are getting banned for doing things that negatively impact my game experience unnecessarily.

[Sillywilly]

A monopoly (from Greek monos / μονος (alone or single) + polein / πωλειν (to sell)) exists when a specific person or enterprise is the only supplier of a particular commodity.

Yes if we split hairs other people can still farm their own resources, craft their own shit and put it on the auction hall. But the only way it's only going to sell is at reseller prices because if it's not listed at the same price as a reseller or higher the reseller will buy it to keep their products as the only choice.

That's what a monopoly is, making your product the only choice available. Me busting up into every WalMart, Kmart and Target in the country and buying all their shit so people have nothing to buy from there and then turning around and selling it at a hugely inflated price still establishes me as the only supplier of the product.

You don't have to be the only PRODUCER of a product, just the only supplier.

The only way that system is going to get overridden is if Target and Walmart and Kmart can produce products faster than I can buy them. Which is impossible with a team of Chinese gold farmers buying everything up and then using parts of the profit from reselling to increase their ability to buy up everything that hits the market at a reasonable price.

It doesn't have to be absolute dominance of the market to be considered a monopoly as well:

http://www.computerworld.com/s/artic...metal_monopoly

I think you guys are refering to a VERTICAL monopoly in which the supplier gets a stranglehold on the market by owning all the producers.

And I agree with Boxy. Who gives a fuck if it makes the game better for the majority of the people who play the game for the leveling, PvsP and adventure. What kind of idiot gets their jollies paying 15 bucks a month to cause inflation in an MMO? There are games geared specifically for people who want to play economics and only economics.

[Ero Elohim]

Yes if we split hairs other people can still farm their own resources, craft their own shit and put it on the auction hall. But the only way it's only going to sell is at reseller prices because if it's not listed at the same price as a reseller or higher the reseller will buy it to keep their products as the only choice.

Actually, no. The only way it won't beat the reseller prices is if you aren't putting enough of it up. If you go and craft three pairs of boots and put them all up, fuck yes the reseller will buy them all and charge his own prices because he can afford to. If you flood the market with three hundred pairs of boots, he'll be forced to lower his prices to compete or go bankrupt buying your whole inventory. There's absolutely nothing preventing you from snapping up three hundred pairs of boots on the AH or the materials to craft them, or going and farming them yourself, except that you may not have the time. The dude in his basement who jerks off to his 500,000g wallet, however, does. Again: MMOs don't reward the people who have skill or finesse. They reward people who can put in a fuckload of time.

Secondly, I'm not sure how this hurts you in any way. Even if you can't put in the time to start your own AH business, you can sell your stuff for anything below the reseller's prices. He'll snap them up. If he's selling for 100, you sell for 95. He buys it up, you get 95. He makes 5 profit. Nobody is being hurt here. In fact, you're probably getting things at a better rate because the market is pretty standardized, and you're getting your cash quicker because he's buying your stock immediately.

Basically, it's not a monopoly because you have all the same opportunities. Try starting a retail business akin to Wal-mart, with how much exclusive contracts and shit they do, and you'll quickly find you can't even compete. Starting an AH market is much simpler, and pretty much requires you to get a supply running. Since you have an inexhaustible supply, that shouldn't require too much. If you expect to compete with the dude who spends 3 hours a day perusing the AH, tracking prices, and buying below his margins and reselling, all by putting up the junk you found questing, well... tough shit?

[Sillywilly]

Actually, no. The only way it won't beat the reseller prices is if you aren't putting enough of it up. If you go and craft three pairs of boots and put them all up, fuck yes the reseller will buy them all and charge his own prices because he can afford to. If you flood the market with three hundred pairs of boots, he'll be forced to lower his prices to compete or go bankrupt buying your whole inventory. There's absolutely nothing preventing you from snapping up three hundred pairs of boots on the AH or the materials to craft them, or going and farming them yourself, except that you may not have the time. The dude in his basement who jerks off to his 500,000g wallet, however, does. Again: MMOs don't reward the people who have skill or finesse. They reward people who can put in a fuckload of time.

Secondly, I'm not sure how this hurts you in any way. Even if you can't put in the time to start your own AH business, you can sell your stuff for anything below the reseller's prices. He'll snap them up. If he's selling for 100, you sell for 95. He buys it up, you get 95. He makes 5 profit. Nobody is being hurt here. In fact, you're probably getting things at a better rate because the market is pretty standardized, and you're getting your cash quicker because he's buying your stock immediately.

Basically, it's not a monopoly because you have all the same opportunities. Try starting a retail business akin to Wal-mart, with how much exclusive contracts and shit they do, and you'll quickly find you can't even compete. Starting an AH market is much simpler, and pretty much requires you to get a supply running. Since you have an inexhaustible supply, that shouldn't require too much. If you expect to compete with the dude who spends 3 hours a day perusing the AH, tracking prices, and buying below his margins and reselling, all by putting up the junk you found questing, well... tough shit?

So why should I pay 15 bucks a month to spend several hours a day to farm resources to make 300 pairs of fucking boots just so my MMO of choice doesn't die due to new players not being able to afford shit on the auction hall?

If he's selling for 100, you sell for 95. He buys it up, you get 95. He makes 5 profit.

Except 95 is too expensive for the new guy who needs that pair of boots.

If I put it low enough for the new guy to afford the gold seller/ reseller buys them up and reposts them at a later date for 100.

When you talk about flooding the market with my cheap boots you're talking about resellers who make upwards of 300% profit on what they do (easily even in LotRO). So if I want to put a reseller in the hole I'll have to produce 3 times the amount of boots as he can buy. A reseller powered by not only teams of chinese gold farmers, but by a reseller who can sell only 1 of every 3 pair he buys at my reasonable prices and still break even. Not to mention plenty of gold BUYERS are willing to piss away gold for a quick and easy buy and because they buy their gold they also don't bother to take up gathering or crafting to contribute to the coup against the resellers.

So for every 5 seconds that reseller spends hitting "BUYOUT" for 1 pair of boots, I'll have to spend enough time gathering resources, refining resources and then crafting 4 of these items just so he can't completely wipe out the market and still come away in the positive.

Do you see the counterproducivity yet?

A more accurate scenario would be me posting 5 pairs of these boots at a reasonable price like 10 gold, the reseller buying 4 out of the 5, 1 person buying my two pair that got left cheap and then gold buyers and long time established buying my boots from the reseller at 30-50 gold a pop. The reseller made anywhere from 60g to 120 gold in a matter of about 1 minute from buying and reposting and it took me who knows how long to harvest, refine and craft to create those boots. The part that is destructive to the game is that now 3-4 new players are looking at an auction hall with 4 pair of boots at 100gs which would take them forever to farm and only 1 go the boots at their true value or reasonable rate.

Again if I just raise my prices to hit back at the reseller then I'm doing as much damage to the new guy as the reseller.

And with software that any numbnut can download from Curse it's not like they have to spend any real time researching anything. I had an add on for Warhammer that told me if I was buying an item above or below or at the average going price that was right there in my interface.

Trust me I saw the effects 1st hand on Landroval in LotRO.

Dying LotRO game pre-F2P that gold sellers had no interest in. F2P announcement, gold sellers see $. Move in, farm gold, play the auction hall to increase gold exponentially through reselling. Prices jump 3-400 % in a week and stayed there (or at least until I quit).

[Graveworm]

Except 95 is too expensive for the new guy who needs that pair of boots.

If I put it low enough for the new guy to afford the gold seller/ reseller buys them up and reposts them at a later date for 100.

The problem here is that you aren't taking the right approach to the market. You cannot sell something at whatever you feel is a fair price. In order to put pressure on resellers you have to undercut them by as slim a margin as possible. When that starts to happen, demand can regulate the market because if enough people can't buy the item at that price, the reseller will no longer make a profit. For example, let's say reseller is listing an item at 1,000,000 credits. If you put up that same item for 990,000 credits, they have to commit 99 times the profit they make from one resale for each item they are forced to hold in their inventory. On the other hand, if you decide to list the item at a fair price of 100,000 credits, for every item they resell they make enough profit to re-invest into nine more items to hold in their stockpile. The first scenario is much more difficult to sustain for the reseller, and Average Joe makes a ton of money by riding the price spike. In the second scenario, the reseller makes money off of people who don't understand how a market works (e.g. you) just like they would in real life, in America where it's perfectly legal to buy that Amazing Spider-man #1 for $10 at a garage sale and resell it for thousands of dollars.

[VKhaun]

Wow. This argument has gone way past it's own boundaries and is headed for ten pages of accomplishing nothing, all because Silly was retarded about the definition of monopoly and had never thought to do this before now, and Boxy got his panties in a twist when I used the word 'freedom'.

The bans for messing with the market are nonsense. You can stop them from messing with it with VERY simple game mechanics and every other game that they're a clone of has no punishment for doing the same thing. The end. Abstract analogies need not apply. /thread. Period.

[Sillywilly]

The problem here is that you aren't taking the right approach to the market. You cannot sell something at whatever you feel is a fair price. In order to put pressure on resellers you have to undercut them by as slim a margin as possible. When that starts to happen, demand can regulate the market because if enough people can't buy the item at that price, the reseller will no longer make a profit. For example, let's say reseller is listing an item at 1,000,000 credits. If you put up that same item for 990,000 credits, they have to commit 99 times the profit they make from one resale for each item they are forced to hold in their inventory. On the other hand, if you decide to list the item at a fair price of 100,000 credits, for every item they resell they make enough profit to re-invest into nine more items to hold in their stockpile. The first scenario is much more difficult to sustain for the reseller, and Average Joe makes a ton of money by riding the price spike. In the second scenario, the reseller makes money off of people who don't understand how a market works (e.g. you) just like they would in real life, in America where it's perfectly legal to buy that Amazing Spider-man #1 for $10 at a garage sale and resell it for thousands of dollars.

And I've already explained that by putting the item on the market for 990,000 credits I'm causing the same price inflation that a reseller causes, only by a what, a 5% lesser margin? That still doesn't solve the problem of inflation for the new guy coming into the game.

all because Silly was retarded about the definition of monopoly

Because hey, if you don't actually know the scope of a word when you criticize someone's use of it that means they're being retarded about it.

Hurr Durr

[VKhaun]

And I've already explained that by putting the item on the market for 990,000 credits I'm causing the same price inflation that a reseller causes, only by a what, a 5% lesser margin? That still doesn't solve the problem of inflation for the new guy coming into the game.

This actually makes a terrible amount of sense to me. In the long run it's a moot point because new players slow to a trickle very quickly compared to established players, and established players always help new ones. Plus a new player only needs to find items to sell on that inflated market and viola... they have the cash to also buy on that same inflated market. I've made this argument many times and LOVE the inflated market on DAoC because it makes for rampant charity, trade skills and mounts are trivially cheap and dye costs are laughable.

However, we're talking about an MMO which has JUST LAUNCHED. The entire populace is made up of new players, not established ones. I guess it makes sense to hand out temp bans for the first say... six months?... to protect your market at launch. Silly is still just being silly Sillywilly about the topic in general, but I think I see a motive on the dev side now and not just retardation.

Because hey, if you don't actually know the scope of a word when you criticize someone's use of it that means they're being retarded about it.

Hurr Durr

That is a terrible nonsensical excuse, even for you.

[Andile™]

China called.

They want their wall back.

[Esfires]

China called.

They want their wall back.

That doesn't even make sense.

[DJive]

Damn I missed a crazy active thread.. I've been to busy playing SWTOR =(