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  1. #1
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    Default Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    Man I said PvsP would be the downfall of this game for me or not and would determine whether I stayed long term.

    Unfortunately so far I see way too much of Mythics idiotic Gen 2 hands in the PvsP. Fucking Space Warhammer in the scenarios. You've got your healing reduction spells on a timer to try and combat the over done healing (ala Warhammer). You've got all the short duration stuns/CC/knockdowns that don't trigger immunity (ala Warhammer). You've got all your sissy ass "get out of jail free" cards like stealthers dissappearing in the middle of a fight (ala Warhammer). Worst of all you've got your cheap shot bullshit (ala Warhammer) like punt and pull. Some idiot on your team is always punting away an enemy that was near death and launches the guy right back into a crowd of his own teammates. Or you're battling it out and all of a sudden you find yourself standing in the middle of a zerg of enemies because some asshole used "tentacle" on you.

    So far this does not look good for PvsP. I loved the fast action, strafing style combat of Warhammer but the cheap shot timered skills and constant barrage of short duration knockdowns/punts was bullshit.
    "Nah man, a Paladin has to play fair and by the rules. Do you really see Silly not attacking a weakened opponent? Or rather, not exploiting a weakness to take an enemy down? He'd totally do that. It's the law of the jungle with Silly, even if he does have faith. I think he's principled, just not merciful." - Zavon

  2. #2

    Default Re: Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    So, the awesome button makes an appearance? hehehe
    "The argument that “people now have more freedom than ever” is based on the fact that we are allowed to do almost anything we please as long as it has no practical consequences."

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    Yeah I sort of agree, CC is a bit outrageous in the game right now but I suspect a buv. There is an immunity timer that everyone is supposed to have that doesn't work.
    "Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." ~ Voltaire

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    Ok, now that I have time to be more articulate:

    The game is designed around having to fight groups of mobs, and using a companion for PvE. So, in order for that to feel engaging and fun (and as you'll see in your 40's when the game gets much harder) you need those kinds of abilities to be successful. Unfortunately, all that CC and those cooldowns can be used in PvP as well. This is why it's absolutely imperative that they fix the immunity bar. At the moment, it doesn't even work. I've been chain CC'd in matches to oblivion.

    The other side the coin is this: You play a sentinel. I'd be willing to be that not only do you have the misfortune of being mostly melee, you also have the least CC in the game. You've picked a very high damage class, that is good with pressure, but has little to counter the loads of knockbacks and stuns that everyone else has in spades.
    "Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." ~ Voltaire

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    Quote Originally Posted by Zavon View Post
    Ok, now that I have time to be more articulate:

    The game is designed around having to fight groups of mobs, and using a companion for PvE. So, in order for that to feel engaging and fun (and as you'll see in your 40's when the game gets much harder) you need those kinds of abilities to be successful. Unfortunately, all that CC and those cooldowns can be used in PvP as well. This is why it's absolutely imperative that they fix the immunity bar. At the moment, it doesn't even work. I've been chain CC'd in matches to oblivion.

    The other side the coin is this: You play a sentinel. I'd be willing to be that not only do you have the misfortune of being mostly melee, you also have the least CC in the game. You've picked a very high damage class, that is good with pressure, but has little to counter the loads of knockbacks and stuns that everyone else has in spades.
    Pretty true but immunity even if its only a short duration will do wonders for the game. As it is right now I jump people, start pooping on them, they use their CC on me, I purge it and resume the attack, then some player add punts me, I leap back on my original target to have someone do a knock down, I get back onto my target and someone force grips me, etc, etc. It goes on and on and on.

    Where I usually end up getting frustrated with MMOs is the zerg surfing chicken shits. Right now empire is a bunch of pussies (maybe republic does the same to them I dont know) that will fight until theyre at 25% and if they ever see 1/4 health theyre hauling ass back to base even if you werent much better off yourself. They pop their get out of jail card whatever it may be and haul ass running. I really wish an MMO would try a gladiator dual type thing where youre put into a 1vs1 arena and duke it out to the death. None of this retreat to my pre-made body guards bullshit.

    Whatever my total kills are right now it should be 3 times what it is. 2 out of 3 times when Im chiseling someones name on their tombstone they pop the easy button and high tail it out of there. (the fact that people still teleport around on the screen due to server loads and what not doesnt help with counteracting their retreating either).

    The problem right now with PvsP in this game are the exact problems Warhammer had.

    If I had to make a list or two:

    1. Too much CC even though most of it is short duration. Its just getting spammed so it may as well be stun nuke nuke all over again. (immunity might help this)
    2. Too many chicken shit buttons. People should not be able to bail on a fight every 2 minutes. (or become invincible every 5 minutes for 20 secs, etc).
    3. Too many cheap shot buttons, especially in Hut Ball arena. Tentacle or anything that pulls an opponent to you should never exist. If youve got the balls then sure something that will propel you towards your opponent then fine. Use it wisely or youll be commiting suicde. Crap like tether or tenacle where they pull you poses no risk to them and is pretty much insta death for their opponent. It was completely cheesy in Warhammer and its no different in SWtOR.
    4. Environment should never kill a player in PvsP. Not crap like lava pits and cliffs. Not in a game with multiple forms of punt or knock back. Often times Im working my ass off to keep 1 or 2 opponents from killing me with that shit only to have a 3rd run up from the other side and AoE punt/knock back sending me off a cliff or into a pool of lava/sludge on Hut Ball. Its cheap, it requires no skill in the way its typically used, not to mention the morons on your team screw up a kill by punting an enemy to safety just because they think it looks cool.
    5. Healing is over done and this is the problem with any game from WoW to Warhammer that uses casting bars instead of interrupt. Anyone that is even remotely a hybrid healer is either unkillable due to how long they can prolong death (even if they cant fight back worth a shit) or they simply stop fighting and just start heal spamming until their buddies save their ass. Theres been many times when Ive probably done 3-4 times an opponents health in damage to them but was never able to finish them because either all my focus/timers/opportunity were used up or they just kept running around healing without fighting until they made it back to their booty buddies.

    These problems might not be so glaring or so frustrating if they hadnt been the exact same complains we had with Warhammer for to the freaking T. Seeing Mythics handy work (the shoddy handy work no less) makes it worst than its actual sum.

    As for MMO PvsP in general my biggest complain for the genre is that zerg focus fire wins the day. I would love to see a system that rewards something other than 12 people all attacking the same person. Itd be nice to see some actual fights on the PvsP battlefield for a change.
    Last edited by Sillywilly; 12-30-2011 at 05:54 PM.
    "Nah man, a Paladin has to play fair and by the rules. Do you really see Silly not attacking a weakened opponent? Or rather, not exploiting a weakness to take an enemy down? He'd totally do that. It's the law of the jungle with Silly, even if he does have faith. I think he's principled, just not merciful." - Zavon

  6. #6

    Default Re: Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    I guess structured PvP (Huttball and such) is all there is to it, huh?

    http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=104147

    Even if their PvP is poorly designed and there aren't many options for it, that will only eliminate like what, 25% of their population? Most people play these games for loot and raids. If they did that well they can retain their PvE subscribers and be successful in spite of treating PvP as an afterthought.
    "The argument that “people now have more freedom than ever” is based on the fact that we are allowed to do almost anything we please as long as it has no practical consequences."

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    Quote Originally Posted by Marou View Post
    I guess structured PvP (Huttball and such) is all there is to it, huh?

    http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=104147

    Even if their PvP is poorly designed and there aren't many options for it, that will only eliminate like what, 25% of their population? Most people play these games for loot and raids. If they did that well they can retain their PvE subscribers and be successful in spite of treating PvP as an afterthought.
    That was a pretty funny thread. I've haven't engaged in world pvp, so can't really comment on that. All the pvp that I've done at *this* point has been structured.

    However, there is a planet (called Illum), that is supposed to be like a DAOC frontier zone. It could end up being stupid-- I dunno.
    "Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." ~ Voltaire

  8. #8

    Default Re: Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    Quote Originally Posted by Zavon View Post
    That was a pretty funny thread. I've haven't engaged in world pvp, so can't really comment on that. All the pvp that I've done at *this* point has been structured.

    However, there is a planet (called Illum), that is supposed to be like a DAOC frontier zone. It could end up being stupid-- I dunno.
    I read about that on the forum when I was there earlier. Apparently it's counterproductive to kill other players in it, because on top of them giving no rewards, it prevents you being rewarded with the objective capture; so people just trade the objective(s) of that zone back and forth so everyone can get their PvP epics.

    Thread was here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=96139

    best quote tldr: "You're missing the point. Part of pvp is being stronger than other people. If you pvp and get weaker, you'll actually get better at pvp by not pvping."

    "The argument that “people now have more freedom than ever” is based on the fact that we are allowed to do almost anything we please as long as it has no practical consequences."

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    That's fucking hilarious. The other side is just sitting there across the way from them, hhahahah. Well, the game has been out 10 days. Hopefully, they'll patch some shit in to fix this.

    I like this qoute:

    "I did this with a repub earlier. Got my weekly done (15 objectives) in about 10 minutes.

    One time he got sassy and tried to shoot me with the base turret, but I killed him and we moved on.
    "


    Edit: Dear god, there was some idiot actually trying to advocate this shitty design by saying its the burden of the players to actually pvp. WTF?
    Last edited by Zavon; 12-30-2011 at 08:54 PM.
    "Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." ~ Voltaire

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    I think we have proven that any good done in DAoC was an accident by Mythic.
    Fuck that company.

    "Blue Moon is for fags" - DJive

  11. #11

    Default Re: Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    Lulz...Raider rage is awesome.

    "The argument that “people now have more freedom than ever” is based on the fact that we are allowed to do almost anything we please as long as it has no practical consequences."

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    Quote Originally Posted by Zavon View Post
    Yeah I sort of agree, CC is a bit outrageous in the game right now but I suspect a buv. There is an immunity timer that everyone is supposed to have that doesn't work.
    The immunity timer works perfectly fine, it just takes a bit to trigger it. If you pay attention to your enemies resolve bar, its possible to stagger your CC enough to avoid triggering it if you are very careful. That being said, they may need to tweak how fast the resolve bar fills. On the other hand, I personally think the instanced PvP is fine as is and I'm having a blast doing warzones. I generally only get my ass handed to me by people twice my level (as a 21 Sniper).

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    Zavon exactly why do they allow you to roll a toon of either faction on the same server? Have you heard any logical explanation for this?
    "Nah man, a Paladin has to play fair and by the rules. Do you really see Silly not attacking a weakened opponent? Or rather, not exploiting a weakness to take an enemy down? He'd totally do that. It's the law of the jungle with Silly, even if he does have faith. I think he's principled, just not merciful." - Zavon

  14. #14

    Default Re: Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    Quote Originally Posted by Sillywilly View Post
    Zavon exactly why do they allow you to roll a toon of either faction on the same server? Have you heard any logical explanation for this?
    Obviously it's because PvP has never mattered to their fundamental design. I think this is blatantly obvious from a cursory glance at their official pvp forums or watching any gameplay videos; especially world PvP. However, since the raids are apparently shitty too, I'm not sure what that fundamental design was. Maybe attract so many new players to the genre they can succeed without any vets?

    The thing all the raiders were talking about was something called "hard enrage timers"? Not sure if that was the right term, but it was something like that. The example was raid bosses where you'd have say, 5 minutes to kill the boss (tank & spank) and if you didn't then he'd instakill everyone. They said it was really lazy and crappy design because it just makes them carry optimized DPS teams without adding difficulty or requiring player coordination.
    "The argument that “people now have more freedom than ever” is based on the fact that we are allowed to do almost anything we please as long as it has no practical consequences."

  15. #15

    Default Re: Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    Quote Originally Posted by Marou View Post
    Obviously it's because PvP has never mattered to their fundamental design. I think this is blatantly obvious from a cursory glance at their official pvp forums or watching any gameplay videos; especially world PvP. However, since the raids are apparently shitty too, I'm not sure what that fundamental design was. Maybe attract so many new players to the genre they can succeed without any vets?

    The thing all the raiders were talking about was something called "hard enrage timers"? Not sure if that was the right term, but it was something like that. The example was raid bosses where you'd have say, 5 minutes to kill the boss (tank & spank) and if you didn't then he'd instakill everyone. They said it was really lazy and crappy design because it just makes them carry optimized DPS teams without adding difficulty or requiring player coordination.
    Yeah, a hard enrage timer is literally a time limit on how long you have to fight the boss. At X minutes, it gets a buff that increases its damage done by 500% or something and starts one-shotting everything, or just casts a huge AOE bomb that deals 100,000 damage to everything in the room. Even WoW has them, though they've definitely steered more towards a "soft enrage" lately, where the boss has some mechanic that theoretically overwhelms you after a non-specific amount of time. Like, every minute he gains a 20% damage increase, so eventually he'll be too tough to kill, but that depends on your team and gear more than a stopwatch.

    I, too, had a hard time pinning down what their main design focus was for the gameplay. Like I've said multiple times in other threads, they seemed so caught up in IMMERSIVE STORYTELLING that they should've just made an interactive novel instead of bolting a carbon-copy WoW clone onto their chat wheels. The gameplay never felt like it had heart to me, rather I felt a bunch of programmers were told to look at WoW and copy what they did - the designers were too busy writing quest text.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    Quote Originally Posted by Ero Elohim View Post

    I, too, had a hard time pinning down what their main design focus was for the gameplay. Like I've said multiple times in other threads, they seemed so caught up in IMMERSIVE STORYTELLING that they should've just made an interactive novel instead of bolting a carbon-copy WoW clone onto their chat wheels. The gameplay never felt like it had heart to me, rather I felt a bunch of programmers were told to look at WoW and copy what they did - the designers were too busy writing quest text.
    That's the impression I got the little bit of the beta I played. I couldn't stomach the "IMMERSIVE STORYTELLING" if the game played EXACTLY like wow. The story just wasn't good enough to warrant wasting time trudging through the combat to get to.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoobi View Post
    That's the impression I got the little bit of the beta I played. I couldn't stomach the "IMMERSIVE STORYTELLING" if the game played EXACTLY like wow. The story just wasn't good enough to warrant wasting time trudging through the combat to get to.
    That's a pretty retarded viewpoint though, because the leveling up experience is not what drove people away from WoW ever...PvP players not satisfied with instanced crap or gear bloat left, and all the raiders stayed or drifted to games like EQ2/LOTRO/Rift, etc. I'd be interested to know what casual players actually do, because no-one here is a casual gamer. If they just roll a bunch of alts maybe Bioware is smarter than we think, and they can take it to the bank.

    I actually think MOBA's have taken the place of competitive MMO PvP for people serious about arena/scenario type MMO combat. Sandbox/world PvP'ers can pew-pew in spaceships in Eve or...nothing. I'd almost say Eve doesn't even count, because it's a kickass simulation and sandbox with horrible UI/Controls and a vastly over-complicated skill/character system. So, it's fun and has alot of merit, but there isn't much actual game in it.

    People here like (Zavon) would probably claim to be casual. However, if you spend a 6+ hour stretch playing games at any time, you're not fooling anyone.
    "The argument that “people now have more freedom than ever” is based on the fact that we are allowed to do almost anything we please as long as it has no practical consequences."

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    I'll be honest, I don't spend a lot of time trying to figure out their intent or even the purpose of their design. I am having too much fun actually *playing* the game to wonder. If there was something that made me angry, or somehow bothered me, I'd probably spend a lot more time trying to analyze every decision they made. On the whole, even their "structured" pvp is a lot of fun. It can be annoying at times, but most of the time I am the one eating faces than vice versa.

    Edit: In regards to how much I play- maybe one to two hours tops a night if I have the time. Over the holidays I played considerably more, but NEVER more than three hours at a time. In fact today, I only played maybe two hours today. I have too many other things going on. Rolling a bunch of alts is *exactly* what I'm doing. I just keep wondering around, playing different characters seeing the different stories from different perspectives.

    Double Edit: Hell, even when I'm playing the game I'm doing other shit. Last night I was playing and chatting with Marou. Other times, I'm playing while browsing facebook or reading stuff on the internet. That's as casual as you can get, in my humble opinion. I just don't have the fortitude to sit there and play games for hours at a time anymore. With Skyrim, I just let it sit there on pause for like an entire weekend.
    Last edited by Zavon; 12-31-2011 at 02:32 PM.
    "Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." ~ Voltaire

  19. #19

    Default Re: Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    Quote Originally Posted by Zavon View Post
    I'll be honest, I don't spend a lot of time trying to figure out their intent or even the purpose of their design. I am having too much fun actually *playing* the game to wonder. If there was something that made me angry, or somehow bothered me, I'd probably spend a lot more time trying to analyze every decision they made. On the whole, even their "structured" pvp is a lot of fun. It can be annoying at times, but most of the time I am the one eating faces than vice versa.

    Edit: In regards to how much I play- maybe one to two hours tops a night if I have the time. Over the holidays I played considerably more, but NEVER more than three hours at a time. In fact today, I only played maybe two hours today. I have too many other things going on.
    Heh, see; knowing design goals up front matters alot to me; cause I hate to be having this awesome experience and then... I guess a book analogy works; the final chapter is 10,000 pages long and contains nothing but this:

    "The argument that “people now have more freedom than ever” is based on the fact that we are allowed to do almost anything we please as long as it has no practical consequences."

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    As long as I have an awesome time, playing a game, then that's all I can hope for. It's all about the experience for me, not rushing to the end and seeing what new content the devs can throw at me. A book, unlike a game has to be taken as a whole. I *expect* to eventually not want to play a game anymore. When that time comes, if I can look back and say I had more pleasant memories than good ones, then it was a win.


    Edit: Great clip by the way. I was just having a discussion with someone yesterday about that movie. Riddle me this: How much more AWESOME would the shining have been if Micheal Keaton was the main in that role? I think he would have been awesome.
    Last edited by Zavon; 12-31-2011 at 02:39 PM.
    "Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." ~ Voltaire

  21. #21

    Default Re: Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    Quote Originally Posted by Zavon View Post
    As long as I have an awesome time, playing a game, then that's all I can hope for. It's all about the experience for me, not rushing to the end and seeing what new content the devs can throw at me. A book, unlike a game has to be taken as a whole. I *expect* to eventually not want to play a game anymore. When that time comes, if I can look back and say I had more pleasant memories than good ones, then it was a win.
    I don't have fun leveling in games, especially not games with dice-driven combat. I have fun doing crazy things in the game world, ecspecially PvP. Level based MMO's push you to get to the top with the expectation that is when the real game starts.
    "The argument that “people now have more freedom than ever” is based on the fact that we are allowed to do almost anything we please as long as it has no practical consequences."

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    Quote Originally Posted by Marou View Post
    I don't have fun leveling in games, especially not games with dice-driven combat. I have fun doing crazy things in the game world, ecspecially PvP. Level based MMO's push you to get to the top with the expectation that is when the real game starts.
    http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=98017
    "Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." ~ Voltaire

  23. #23

    Default Re: Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    Voice overs and cut-scenes are not game to me; if they were I'd be gushing over DA2 and Dues Ex:HR instead of loathing them. Your "personal story" isn't personal at all. It's a linear Bioware style story with a bunch of VO's. Your completion of it or not has exactly 0 relevance to the game world. Leveling up in SWTOR sounds to me like a REALLY LONG version of Tortage. I expect it's completion to be followed by the same rude awakening people got in AoC.
    "The argument that “people now have more freedom than ever” is based on the fact that we are allowed to do almost anything we please as long as it has no practical consequences."

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    Round in round in circles we go. But that's fine, there are plenty of people who have your point of view. Clearly, I'm not one of them-- I'm going to continue force leaping bitches.
    "Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." ~ Voltaire

  25. #25

    Default Re: Fucking Mythich helping Bioware in SWtOR

    Does it have really interactive, inventive quest content and level design, like DDO?



    DDO should really win some level design awards as far as I'm concerned. It's got more interesting quests and levels than most single player games and definitely all other MMO's. Unless SWTOR tops it in that regard? Hell, it even competing in that respect would be a huge step forward cause nobody else is.
    "The argument that “people now have more freedom than ever” is based on the fact that we are allowed to do almost anything we please as long as it has no practical consequences."

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