Action MMORPGs will dominate in 2012?

[andyoume]

http://news.mmosite.com/content/a/20...n_2012_1.shtml

As the article said, many action MMORPGs comes in 2012. In 2011, Action MMORPG like Dragon Nest and Vindictus are very hot. That's no doubt that such genre game would go on a glorious run in 2012.

[Ero Elohim]

I know this is a bot, but it's kind of an interesting topic.

No, I don't believe an action MMO will ever dominate. The standard indoctrinated MMO crowd (i.e. the people willing to pay $15/mo.) is far too conservative to accept something so radically different from the Everquest/WoW/SWTOR paradigm. The action gamer, used to free multiplayer, no grinds, and fast, fair matchups, won't see anything of value over playing Call of Duty or Battlefield or Halo.

It's a niche genre, and that's why we keep seeing Action MMOs make a mediocre splash and then disappear.

[Marou]

He's not a bot as far as I can tell. Anyways 2012 will see a bunch of AAA Action MMO's released. Namely Tera, Firefall, and Blade and Soul. Hell, the biggest MMO release this year (Guild Wars 2) is looking like a holy union between traditional MMO combat and action oriented active block/dodge mechanics. Blade and Soul is doing something similar in that skills auto-target/face but dodge/block is actively player triggered. The only thing I can think of that sounds remotely interesting coming out in 2012 that isn't pushing gameplay in a more action oriented direction is Dominus, which is an RvR based P2P game Sanya is representin on.

LOS orbitting in older MMO's in the SWTOR/WoW vein is the only real way to avoid damage. It's also fucking retarded. I'll be happy to see it killed through innovations in gameplay.

[Ero Elohim]

LOS orbitting in older MMO's in the SWTOR/WoW vein is the only real way to avoid damage. It's also fucking retarded. I'll be happy to see it killed through innovations in gameplay.

Oh, I agree with you to an absurd extent. I would love to see the EQ/WoW/SWTOR autoattack-hotbar style of combat hurled into a pit of lava, One Ring style. However, the motto of MMO gamers has been, in my experience, "The only thing we hate more than stagnation is change."

[Marou]

Oh, I agree with you to an absurd extent. I would love to see the EQ/WoW/SWTOR autoattack-hotbar style of combat hurled into a pit of lava, One Ring style. However, the motto of MMO gamers has been, in my experience, "The only thing we hate more than stagnation is change."

With games like SWTOR removing auto-attack, it's not such a huge leap forward to say, "This button makes you dodge/block/parry" and tying things together into animation chains with player timing and skill determining damage avoidance (without) LOS orbitting due to autoface types of behavior. Then you get into things like certain parts of combo chains staggering so you can unleash bigger attacks without being avoided, using a quick but weak attack as an interrupt while someone is triggering a powerful attack with a longer windup animation, etc.

The low latency high bandwidth net has been there for years. No technical hurdle is stopping anyone now, which is why all this type of shit is finally coming out. Maybe it will be niche, but I'll like it. I think if the combat is the only good part of the game it will be niche. However, stick that type of system on a game with SWTOR types of production values and it'd dominate the industry. Games like Dragon's Nest and Vindictus have awesome combat, but it's the only thing they have going for them. In every other respect they utterly fail.

[Ziel]

He's not a bot as far as I can tell. Anyways 2012 will see a bunch of AAA Action MMO's released. Namely Tera, Firefall, and Blade and Soul.

I do believe you're forgetting the most important one there. *cough*

[Ero Elohim]

With games like SWTOR removing auto-attack, it's not such a huge leap forward to say, "This button makes you dodge/block/parry" and tying things together into animation chains with player timing and skill determining damage avoidance (without) LOS orbitting due to autoface types of behavior. Then you get into things like certain parts of combo chains staggering so you can unleash bigger attacks without being avoided, using a quick but weak attack as an interrupt while someone is triggering a powerful attack with a longer windup animation, etc.

I'm not saying it isn't possible to do, or even unlikely, but I've seen these discussions on boards and a vocal part of the population doesn't want action combat. You're preaching to the choir, though, I must just be the pessimist here.

[Marou]

I'm not saying it isn't possible to do, or even unlikely, but I've seen these discussions on boards and a vocal part of the population doesn't want action combat. You're preaching to the choir, though, I must just be the pessimist here.

I don't doubt that's true, but I think ultimately the games we play the longest and have the most fun with are only 10% about their combat system. The other 90% is social (guilds, groups, chat), world design, sandbox elements (crafting, housing, economy, exploration), PvP design (conquerable territory, world pvp, minigames, arenas), encounter design (challenge, progression, leveling) etc. More people would play MMO's if the combat was actually something to enjoy, hell, watching stagnant MMO combat videos put me to sleep and I play the damn things off and on.

DaoC had great PvP at a design level because of it's scope and impact. At an individual level, the combat gameplay sucked ass and the balance was atrocious. Regardless, we all played the shit out of it because crappy combat or not; huge open world *meaningful* battles involving keeps, castles, and seige gear are inherently awesome. Eve is awesome for similar reasons, and has similarly shitty gameplay.

Tera looks like it has great combat, yet I still can't get very excited about it after learning a bunch from the Korean beta. It's too like WoW in it's world (theme park) and design of gameplay elements. In many ways it feels like, "Let's make WoW and stick an action combat engine on it." I'm not excited about Dominus because it's more of the same old shit from a combat perspective and I don't like the art, but it could end up being a far better game overall. Certainly it seems way more thought went into those high level design decisions and it's sounds like a cross between AC and DAoC, which is a much more wholesome union than WoW and Vindictus.

[Norska]

I don't know Marou, I remember watching a Tera video where a squirrel did a front flip with an axe twenty times his size.

Squirrel.

Front flip.

Huge axe.

It doesn't get much better than that.

[Boxy Brown]

DaoC had great PvP at a design level because of it's scope and impact. At an individual level, the combat gameplay sucked ass and the balance was atrocious. Regardless, we all played the shit out of it because crappy combat or not; huge open world *meaningful* battles involving keeps, castles, and seige gear are inherently awesome. Eve is awesome for similar reasons, and has similarly shitty gameplay.

Well hold on just a minute there professor, DAoC had amazing combat mechanics the likes of which have died out in the post-wow casting bar/GCD world. Combat styles modifying auto attacks with backup styles, reactionals and positionals is still the best way to go about melee combat I've seen. It beats the hell out mashing one ability every 1.5 seconds. First, that kind of GCD system means that you have a "rotation:" a set of abilities that you always use in the same order because it will maximize your deeps, usually 3-5 abilities, with timers to enhance and a few miscellaneous abilities for "just in case" situations. When you can only do one thing every 1.5 seconds (which is still the most retarded thing I've ever heard of in a game. "You know what players hate? Doing stuff. So let's make it so they can't do more than one thing every 1.5 seconds."), min-maxing becomes extremely important. In contrast, I had about 15-20 combat styles at the ready on any given character, which could be used on any melee swing depending on how the fight unfolded.

I mean, if you need proof of what I'm saying, watch ANY 8v8 video. Seriously. Here's the link to a DAoC video database. Watch any of them. Every time I show a DAoC video to a gamer they want to know what game it is and why they never played it. The combat is 1000 times more dynamic than even the best of 5v5 WoW arena vids. The GCD and pushback were a step in the wrong direction.

EDIT: Actually, check this one out. It's only like 3 weeks old.

[Marou]

Well hold on just a minute there professor, DAoC had amazing combat mechanics the likes of which have died out in the post-wow casting bar/GCD world. Combat styles modifying auto attacks with backup styles, reactionals and positionals is still the best way to go about melee combat I've seen. It beats the hell out mashing one ability every 1.5 seconds. First, that kind of GCD system means that you have a "rotation:" a set of abilities that you always use in the same order because it will maximize your deeps, usually 3-5 abilities, with timers to enhance and a few miscellaneous abilities for "just in case" situations. When you can only do one thing every 1.5 seconds (which is still the most retarded thing I've ever heard of in a game. "You know what players hate? Doing stuff. So let's make it so they can't do more than one thing every 1.5 seconds."), min-maxing becomes extremely important. In contrast, I had about 15-20 combat styles at the ready on any given character, which could be used on any melee swing depending on how the fight unfolded.

I mean, if you need proof of what I'm saying, watch ANY 8v8 video. Seriously. Here's the link to a DAoC video database. Watch any of them. Every time I show a DAoC video to a gamer they want to know what game it is and why they never played it. The combat is 1000 times more dynamic than even the best of 5v5 WoW arena vids. The GCD and pushback were a step in the wrong direction.

EDIT: Actually, check this one out. It's only like 3 weeks old.

Oh, I agree with you that the lack of GCD and set skill rotations was a good thing. However, it was still shitty. Archers one shotting people? Buffbots? Bonedancers? Vampiirs? Healer Stun? CC Overload? Warlocks insta-gibbing from range? Yeah, the balance was shitty. Every time they got the game almost sorta balanced they fucked it up in some new way. Maybe it's balanced nowadays? But nowadays who cares. In DAoC whether you won or lost small group (2-4 people) encounters was all about what class/build versus what class build. What RR's, etc. Very little player skill was involved, and unless someone was suffering serious retardations or lag the conclusion was foregone. Beyond small groups alot of 8-man's were built around gimmicky "rotations" of things they'd do, that were optimized to wtfpwn anyone without perfect coordination and a perfectly balanced opposing team.

It was metagaming skill and team coordination. Not the same type of coordination that leads someone to win at Soul Calibur.

[Valec]

Oh, I agree with you that the lack of GCD and set skill rotations was a good thing. However, it was still shitty. Archers one shotting people? Buffbots? Bonedancers? Vampiirs? Healer Stun? CC Overload? Warlocks insta-gibbing from range? Yeah, the balance was shitty. Every time they got the game almost sorta balanced they fucked it up in some new way. Maybe it's balanced nowadays? But nowadays who cares.

Well, you were talking about the actual mechanics, weren't you? On that case I agree with Boxy. I felt like the mechanics themselves added a layer of skill. Unfortunately a lot of it was based on the fact that the game had shitty netcode and window dragging. Still, there is something to be said for just how the mechanics worked in a simple 1v1. Stand there and try to trade styles without moving, and unless your opponent did the same, you could kiss your ass goodbye.

[VKhaun]

Am I the only one who loses interests in MMO's as they close the gap to action?

I see a vid of Tera and I see the same MMO crap shoot, with maybe some neat gameplay elements. I see D3 and it's an actual purpose-built action game that's going to have real crafting, PvP, the full length of the game will become end-game content, leveling, specs (weapon/traits/skills/runestones + pet) no monthly fee... etc etc etc.

It seems like the action genre is catching up to what MMO's offer faster and more competently than MMO's are catching up to what action games offer. After reading about PlanetSide2 and D3 I have almost no interest in GW2 anymore. I know they don't all release at the same time but if I had all three on my PC I can't imagine myself playing GW2 over either of the others often enough to justify a monthly fee, much less be productive enough in an MMORPG setting with leveling, grouping, staying active in a guild, etc.

[Boxy Brown]

The real problem with MMOs is that they're trying to make them into PvE games you play with other people.

MMOs are at their best when the PvP is at its best. Nowadays games are too focused on raids and gear and all the stuff which SHOULD be a means to an end, not the end itself. No MMO is going to do what games like Diablo and ES can do. Playing with other people includes playing against other people. If I wanted a fantastic PvE game, I'd play Zelda.

[Ero Elohim]

It seems like the action genre is catching up to what MMO's offer faster and more competently than MMO's are catching up to what action games offer. After reading about PlanetSide2 and D3 I have almost no interest in GW2 anymore. I know they don't all release at the same time but if I had all three on my PC I can't imagine myself playing GW2 over either of the others often enough to justify a monthly fee, much less be productive enough in an MMORPG setting with leveling, grouping, staying active in a guild, etc.

GW2 has no monthly fee, so there's no need to justify it.

[Marou]

The real problem with MMOs is that they're trying to make them into PvE games you play with other people.

MMOs are at their best when the PvP is at its best. Nowadays games are too focused on raids and gear and all the stuff which SHOULD be a means to an end, not the end itself. No MMO is going to do what games like Diablo and ES can do. Playing with other people includes playing against other people. If I wanted a fantastic PvE game, I'd play Zelda.

Agreed 100%. A game needs to shamelessly say "PvP is our end-game focus" and if they add raids or something it's for fun, not hardcore PvE progression type players. Those raid-focused shiny farmers are already served as fuck and they tend to stick with their poison of choice until they burn out of the genre permanently.

GW2 has no monthly fee, so there's no need to justify it.

Also, this.

[Alex Mars]

As I have said before, mixing PvP and PvE produces lame results, I want my games totally focused on one of those two aspects. I want a game like SWTOR that does the whole PvE thing brilliantly (yes, I know there is PvP in SWTOR but I am ignoring it) or I want Planetside with total PvP.

I still enjoy auto attack games because generally I play games to relax and socialize and explore, and the notion of measuring my self-worth by how fast I can slap my mouse and keyboard around doesn't get a lot of traction with me. Luckily the auto attack combat model will continue to dominate the industry, even if there are more MMOs for the twitch crowd coming out.

I burned out on PvP while many of you were considering how you would handle puberty, sometime after DAoC if I recall properly and frankly my memories of it are a blur of fighting endlessly in the same places over and over again. The most memorable PvP memories are of my fuckups, like the time my ranger jumped a guy in robes with a staff who turned out to be a friar and not a mage.

I would probably have not burned out on PvP as soon as I did if the general PvP population were not such asshats who only wanted to gank and who ran away like little girls if presented with the opportunity for a fair fight, this is the main reason I have only done battle ground PvP over the last few years when I did any PvP at all.

Oh, I agree with you to an absurd extent. I would love to see the EQ/WoW/SWTOR autoattack-hotbar style of combat hurled into a pit of lava, One Ring style. However, the motto of MMO gamers has been, in my experience, "The only thing we hate more than stagnation is change."

You would sound less like a brain damaged 12 year old if you came to the realization that your personal tastes do not mean shit measured against the world. There are a lot of things I do not like, and some things I dislike intensely, but I see no reason to rant like a child because someone else like those things.

[Ero Elohim]

You would sound less like a brain damaged 12 year old if you came to the realization that your personal tastes do not mean shit measured against the world. There are a lot of things I do not like, and some things I dislike intensely, but I see no reason to rant like a child because someone else like those things.

You've posted more opinionated garbage in your one post in this thread than I've posted in three. You've just insinuated anyone who prefers action combat to hotbar autocombat are whiny teenage asshats whose only sense of accomplishment comes from their gaming skills. Next time you post, leave the raging hypocrisy out of it.

[Boxy Brown]

You've posted more opinionated garbage in your one post in this thread than I've posted in three. You've just insinuated anyone who prefers action combat to hotbar autocombat are whiny teenage asshats whose only sense of accomplishment comes from their gaming skills. Next time you post, leave the raging hypocrisy out of it.

My only sense of accomplishment comes out of my gaming skills, so he has a point there.

[Andile™]

My only sense of accomplishment comes out of my gaming skills, so he has a point there.

That's so not true, Boxy. What about all that ballin in Tokyo from your younger years?





OT: Can anyone tell me wtf ballin is?

[Ero Elohim]

OT: Can anyone tell me wtf ballin is?

Urban slang verb for "being a baller." A "baller" in this case refers to basketball or football player, who tend to make large amounts of money and live wild, extravagant lifestyles with "don't give a fuck" attitudes.

[Andile™]

<3<3

[Valec]

Urban slang verb for "being a baller." A "baller" in this case refers to basketball or football player, who tend to make large amounts of money and live wild, extravagant lifestyles with "don't give a fuck" attitudes.

I hadn't actually thought about it til now. It seems logical now that i've seen an actual definition/origin.

[Sillywilly]

I'm not saying it isn't possible to do, or even unlikely, but I've seen these discussions on boards and a vocal part of the population doesn't want action combat. You're preaching to the choir, though, I must just be the pessimist here.

Yeah but I wonder why that is. I'd love some reflex type combat in an MMO but I honestly don't know how you would make it even remotely fair in an MMO. Ability delay can already be a pretty big nuisance in games lik Warhammer and SWtOR, etc. I can only imagine what it's like to actively try to block an attack.

The idea and principle of it gives me wet dreams. However I'm still not confident in the hardwares ability to pull it off effectively without it being a serious handicap for those with lesser machines and further connections.

Urban slang verb for "being a baller." A "baller" in this case refers to basketball or football player, who tend to make large amounts of money and live wild, extravagant lifestyles with "don't give a fuck" attitudes.

Yeah it's typically pronounced "ball-ah" though, with the dropping of the R as is typical for the descendants of Negus.

[Alex Mars]

Balling (we did not drop the final 'g') was a slang term for fucking when I was a teenager.

You've posted more opinionated garbage in your one post in this thread than I've posted in three. You've just insinuated anyone who prefers action combat to hotbar autocombat are whiny teenage asshats whose only sense of accomplishment comes from their gaming skills. Next time you post, leave the raging hypocrisy out of it.

Sorry, I have read way too many posts here about how people who prefer autocombat are lame and weak and how twitch based games and gamers are sooo fucking superior that I can only laugh at the bone deep hypocrisy and stupidity of your whiny little post. Now STFU, idiot child.