Question about Long Term character development

[Draconian]

I've held off on getting very into GW2, even from the informational side... but I've watched the Angry Joe review and I have some questions for current players.


I personally enjoy gearing up. And from what I can tell, it seems like the competitiveness or advantages gained from gear is very very balanced and homogenized, such that no one really has an advantage because they've played for a year vs someone who's 1 month in. It seems like your build gets better by... building it better from all of your options! And from what I understand, armor skins don't exactly translate to specific items? You can make yourself look different with the same exact gear? Is that correct?


So I guess my question is, why would I play GW2 for PvP vs something like Smite or LoL, which offers the same sort of competitiveness - everyone has (relatively) equal access to all of the same options, and you don't get to be automatically better due to time investment. I -enjoy- that aspect of MMO's, I like having a long term goal, or dealing with not having an awesome item for months until I finally, in a giant nerdgasm, achieve or obtain something powerful. Is there any sort of Realm Rank system with little perks or advantages besides cosmetics?

Is that element completely missing from this game? I will probably still pick this up since it's a one time fee, because based on the Angry Joe review, it does offer tremendous bang for your buck. I just wonder if it will really feel like a character building MMO, or merely a multiplayer action game with a story.


Input appreciated!

[Zavon]

Gear matters. It matters in PvE and in WvW. Structured PvP or Spvp, which is like an arena or battleground, it does not matter.

You can make a piece of gear have the same stats as another piece by using a transmutation coin. You get the coins from map completions and maybe buying them for gems. This destroys both pieces of gear. For instance, say you like the way x looks. Y has better stats. You combine the looks of x with the stats of Y and have a new piece of equipment.

[Zavon]

Long term, the goals for character progression are map completion, gear, pvp rank, skill points, and completing dungeons/world bosses.

Somehow, they have managed to strike the perfrect balance between meaningful progression snd no grind.

[Zavon]

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Structured_PvP

[Pyrrhus]

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/t...me-reimagined/

[Ero Elohim]

Somehow, they have managed to strike the perfrect balance between meaningful progression snd no grind.

I'd disagree with that statement. I found the progression extremely limited and thought it diminished the fun RPG aspects of the game. Unless you like collecting outfits and playing dress-up, there's almost no reason to play the game past 80.

[Zavon]

I'd disagree with that statement. I found the progression extremely limited and thought it diminished the fun RPG aspects of the game. Unless you like collecting outfits and playing dress-up, there's almost no reason to play the game past 80.

You are the only person I've seen say, they feel that way. At times, I feel almost overwhelmed at the sheer number of things I can spend my time doing. It always feels a thigh I've progressed my character every fucking time I've logged on. Of course, I dont get a lot of time to play it though.. Which may be a major difference.

[Zavon]

No reason to play past 80? That is the stupidest thing I've seen in a while. Ill just let wooden potatoes answer this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OMHz...e_gdata_player

[Taolas]

You're right Drac. The character building is extremely light, especially for acquiring gear. At the low levels you build up gear with stats you want in a fun way, and around 25 you switch to rare-er gear with better stats. You can stay away from the most expensive stuff until 80, because you level fast and it's not that much better anyway. Going for second-best can let you have almost anything you want for very cheap as you level through the mid-levels. No loot of any kind matters to me in the mid-levels. There is nothing I will find that will make me be like "Oh sweet!" unless it sells for 20 silver on the market.

At level 80 you can use exotics, the best stat gear in the game. It's slightly harder to acquire, so getting each weapon and a set of armor can take a week or two. After that, it's just skins. Hrm, there are also some insane mystic forge recipes that I don't think anyone knows what they do, because of steep requirements. I think it's more for fun/discovery.

I'm still having tons of fun with other aspects of the game. Unlocking and managing traits feels great as I level up, but that's most of the progression right there.

[Zavon]

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/...r-on-level-80/

[Boxy Brown]

Gear matters in WvW. There's some kind of weird down-scaling of gear that happens if you're sub-80, but at 80 it makes a difference. sPvP is like a DAoC freeshard; everyone gets capped stats.

[Ero Elohim]

You are the only person I've seen say, they feel that way. At times, I feel almost overwhelmed at the sheer number of things I can spend my time doing. It always feels a thigh I've progressed my character every fucking time I've logged on. Of course, I dont get a lot of time to play it though.. Which may be a major difference.

And at 80, you stop progressing your character the moment you craft your exotic armor set. From then on, you're just playing dress up. The thread is about longterm character progression, not the amount of tasks to complete. Hell, I could spend all my time in WoW crafting, flying around the world, and doing missed quests and I'd earn XP, gold, titles and achievements. In some ways, WoW did it better because certain quests gave you fun, permanent trinkets to use. GW2's zone completion bonuses assume you're the same level as the zone and reward your level 80 with level 26 weapons.

Speaking of progression, one of the things I dislike about GW2 is the downscaling. No matter how high level you get, setting foot in a starter area magically transformed you back into the pantywaist you started the game as. It really ruins the feeling of progressing in the game and becoming more powerful. Sure, now you can do all the boring, yak-escorting, impossible to fail events in the starter zone the way they were intended, but you never feel like your character has gone anywhere. Enemies that were annoying at level 5 will always be annoying, even when you're level 80.

No reason to play past 80? That is the stupidest thing I've seen in a while. Ill just let wooden potatoes answer this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OMHz...e_gdata_player

The 'endgame' in GW2 is the same as earning the Loremaster achievement in WoW. That's what I took away from that video.

[Zavon]

And at 80, you stop progressing your character the moment you craft your exotic armor set. From then on, you're just playing dress up. The thread is about longterm character progression, not the amount of tasks to complete. Hell, I could spend all my time in WoW crafting, flying around the world, and doing missed quests and I'd earn XP, gold, titles and achievements. In some ways, WoW did it better because certain quests gave you fun, permanent trinkets to use. GW2's zone completion bonuses assume you're the same level as the zone and reward your level 80 with level 26 weapons.

Speaking of progression, one of the things I dislike about GW2 is the downscaling. No matter how high level you get, setting foot in a starter area magically transformed you back into the pantywaist you started the game as. It really ruins the feeling of progressing in the game and becoming more powerful. Sure, now you can do all the boring, yak-escorting, impossible to fail events in the starter zone the way they were intended, but you never feel like your character has gone anywhere. Enemies that were annoying at level 5 will always be annoying, even when you're level 80.



The 'endgame' in GW2 is the same as earning the Loremaster achievement in WoW. That's what I took away from that video.

What I took away from your post is that you believe that content is only as useful as the amount of phat lewt you get from it. Thankfully for you, there are tons of grinds out there on the market that you can slave away on. Nice reductionist spin on that by the way. The moment you craft your exotic armor set, eh? Never mind how much effort it will take to get there? Never mind if the stats aren't optimal for your build? Anyways, I'm glad players like yourself have moved on from the game. It won't fill that hole in your life like WoW did. Rage on.

Also, a wild Newsmin appears:

[Ero Elohim]

What I took away from your post is that you believe that content is only as useful as the amount of phat lewt you get from it. Thankfully for you, there are tons of grinds out there on the market that you can slave away on. Nice reductionist spin on that by the way. The moment you craft your exotic armor set, eh? Never mind how much effort it will take to get there? Never mind if the stats aren't optimal for your build? Anyways, I'm glad players like yourself have moved on from the game. It won't fill that hole in your life like WoW did. Rage on.

Then you took away the wrong thing.

Back in 2004, WoW had PvP, raids, dungeons, and hundreds of quests. They added in more quests, achievements and titles for completing those quests, harder dungeons, then even harder optional ways to complete those dungeons and earn more titles and achievements. In addition to gear progression, you could very easily progress in achievements, titles, and aesthetics.

GW2 removes the gear progression and everyone can't stop sucking ArenaNet's cock over it. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. What you (and your YouTube friends) are touting as GW2's awesome endgame is exactly what you could do back in World of Warcraft, except barely anyone did it in WoW because it was boring as hell. Questing is boring. GW2's 'questing' doesn't really break the mold.

What I took away from your post is that you believe that content is only as useful as the amount of phat lewt you get from it.

You came into a thread about character progression and are berating me for using character progression as the principle baseline for argument. If you're going to stick around, at least read the original post. Specifically, read the parts that talk about enjoying getting new loot and feeling powerful, so you don't look like an idiot.

[Pyrrhus]

Then you took away the wrong thing.

Back in 2004, WoW had PvP, raids, dungeons, and hundreds of quests. They added in more quests, achievements and titles for completing those quests, harder dungeons, then even harder optional ways to complete those dungeons and earn more titles and achievements. In addition to gear progression, you could very easily progress in achievements, titles, and aesthetics.

GW2 removes the gear progression and everyone can't stop sucking ArenaNet's cock over it. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. What you (and your YouTube friends) are touting as GW2's awesome endgame is exactly what you could do back in World of Warcraft, except barely anyone did it in WoW because it was boring as hell. Questing is boring. GW2's 'questing' doesn't really break the mold.



You came into a thread about character progression and are berating me for using character progression as the principle baseline for argument. If you're going to stick around, at least read the original post. Specifically, read the parts that talk about enjoying getting new loot and feeling powerful, so you don't look like an idiot.

While you are making good points, the one problem I have with your argument is the comparison of GW2 to WoW+Expacs. I wouldn't say that ArenaNet has removed gear progression. I've heard Zoobi and Wulf talking about working on completing their CoF sets. I know there are items available in WvW that cost honor marks(or w/e they're called). Yea the game is a lot less about grinding out dungeons/raids/pvp to get these items as they only improve you slightly, but that seems to be a carry over from GW1 philosphy. The main part of GW1 was character building and I see a lot of that in GW2. Your traits, skills, weapons, all work together to form different builds and possibilities for your character. From there I feel as if the point of the game is to go out and ENJOY the world/story, not work for it. You might go back to a newbie area and be downleved to 4, but you still have all your traits and skills as well as attribute points(simply scaled down).

As there is no scrip fee they don't have to keep adding in NECESSARY gear upgrades and challenges to keep people playing. I think the goal is to keep people playing for the game, not to "keep up" with the iLvl.

I don't believe any of us really have REAL experience with "endgame" besides Zoobi and Wulf as they are the only two I know who are 80, wait for a response from them.

[Wulf]

I've held off on getting very into GW2, even from the informational side... but I've watched the Angry Joe review and I have some questions for current players.


I personally enjoy gearing up. And from what I can tell, it seems like the competitiveness or advantages gained from gear is very very balanced and homogenized, such that no one really has an advantage because they've played for a year vs someone who's 1 month in. It seems like your build gets better by... building it better from all of your options! And from what I understand, armor skins don't exactly translate to specific items? You can make yourself look different with the same exact gear? Is that correct?


So I guess my question is, why would I play GW2 for PvP vs something like Smite or LoL, which offers the same sort of competitiveness - everyone has (relatively) equal access to all of the same options, and you don't get to be automatically better due to time investment. I -enjoy- that aspect of MMO's, I like having a long term goal, or dealing with not having an awesome item for months until I finally, in a giant nerdgasm, achieve or obtain something powerful. Is there any sort of Realm Rank system with little perks or advantages besides cosmetics?

Is that element completely missing from this game? I will probably still pick this up since it's a one time fee, because based on the Angry Joe review, it does offer tremendous bang for your buck. I just wonder if it will really feel like a character building MMO, or merely a multiplayer action game with a story.


Input appreciated!

I would say that there is definitely a gear grind if you have a specific build in mind. For sPvP you get a very LoL/Smite type of experience with everyone having access to free gear. For WvW you need to build a proper set and have gear to match your build. Getting that gear could mean countless hours in a dungeon if you have your eyes set on specific stats. If you want a different look with those stats then that's more time in a dungeon.

Having said that you could gear yourself out reasonably well pretty cheaply if you're not a min/maxer. So yes your character will get more powerful if you complete your build. It reminds me a lot of DAoC's spellcrafting.

I've personally done about 14 5-man raids for my Citadel of Flame set that I'm aiming towards. And that just got me the helmet at about the 9 time mark.

Hope that answers your question.

[Zavon]

Then you took away the wrong thing.

Back in 2004, WoW had PvP, raids, dungeons, and hundreds of quests. They added in more quests, achievements and titles for completing those quests, harder dungeons, then even harder optional ways to complete those dungeons and earn more titles and achievements. In addition to gear progression, you could very easily progress in achievements, titles, and aesthetics.

GW2 removes the gear progression and everyone can't stop sucking ArenaNet's cock over it. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. What you (and your YouTube friends) are touting as GW2's awesome endgame is exactly what you could do back in World of Warcraft, except barely anyone did it in WoW because it was boring as hell. Questing is boring. GW2's 'questing' doesn't really break the mold.



You came into a thread about character progression and are berating me for using character progression as the principle baseline for argument. If you're going to stick around, at least read the original post. Specifically, read the parts that talk about enjoying getting new loot and feeling powerful, so you don't look like an idiot.

What you don't seem to get jack ass, is that they removed the GRIND from gear progression. That doesn't mean there isn't any gear progression shit brain!!!

[VKhaun]

GW2 will really come down to group comp IMO.

Skills with conditions and boons are far more comon and available than skills removing them. 90% of high end PvP is going to turn into group comp to easily stack some specific condition on enemies and spam a boon on allies. You're going to see Regen+Burn or Might+Weaken. Balance in group comp would come from number of boons/conditions you can consistently keep going in a real fight with some cleansing going on, vs how far your group can spread out to avoid fields that get dropped and still maintain that consistency.

I suspect an ele will be the first choice for WvWvW. A trait that takes effect while in air mode gives them the highest speed boost available plus swiftness casts. With a staff and 50% boon duration it would only take two eles to run perma swiftness. With 0% boon duration you can do it with three. (They can add signet of air to -I THINK- become the fastest possible character at 25%+Swiftness+10%) With instant elemental atunements allowing you to shift to whatever status/boon your group centers on. They also have the very nice combo of crit chance + crit damage in the same line (which happens to be air), and depending on weapon can use fire for example to do condition OR regular damage as needed.

[Taolas]

Might be a few questions that weren't answered: You do get small perks from your world doing good in WvW. You can re-skin any item into looking like another of the same type. You do get stronger progressing to 80 from traits and better gear choices/stat layouts. My level 60 traits make me feel OP in PvE. The cool looking armor, like the stuff that has flames shooting out of it, does require a large time sink.

[Boxy Brown]

One thing I'm somewhat disappointed in is how frequently the server match ups change in WvW. The one thing I was looking forward too most in this game was WvW notoriety among foes. That's the only real character progression I care about. It's the only kind that matters to me at all. As it stands now, the servers swap around WAY too quickly to even establish specific enemy guild notoriety.

[Zoobi]

One thing I'm somewhat disappointed in is how frequently the server match ups change in WvW. The one thing I was looking forward too most in this game was WvW notoriety among foes. That's the only real character progression I care about. It's the only kind that matters to me at all. As it stands now, the servers swap around WAY too quickly to even establish specific enemy guild notoriety.

This only happens when you're at the lower brackets. Once you get you get up to the top three you'll start fighting the same people over and over again.

[Zavon]

One thing I'm somewhat disappointed in is how frequently the server match ups change in WvW. The one thing I was looking forward too most in this game was WvW notoriety among foes. That's the only real character progression I care about. It's the only kind that matters to me at all. As it stands now, the servers swap around WAY too quickly to even establish specific enemy guild notoriety.

It was on a 24 hour switch up Boxy, just for the first month. Now that the pecking order has been established, you will face the same two servers for two weeks at a time now. The rankings were posted, Darkhaven, was near the bottom FYI.

[Boxy Brown]

Of course they are, I'm not WvWing yet.

[Graveworm]

It was on a 24 hour switch up Boxy, just for the first month. Now that the pecking order has been established, you will face the same two servers for two weeks at a time now. The rankings were posted, Darkhaven, was near the bottom FYI.

Right now the matchups are a week long, but they will eventually be 2 weeks.

[Draconian]

Ok, I think I got some clarification on what the deal is... and it looks like there is room for what many people consider "time sinks" (I personally liked ToA... wasn't perfect but loved what it brought to the game and PvP). Zavon calm down, you fanboy the shit out of everything I will never put much faith in your reviews and that's not intended to be a personal attack - just the reality of my experience with your MMO excitement. You are much easier to please than Ero. Ero is a tough critic and I appreciate his points, even though I disagree with him a lot on "good game design" type discussions.


I actually don't like at all that weapons and armor can be made to look like any other piece. I like being able to evaluate a person's capabilities by becoming familiar with different items and gear skins, different animations, etc. That's a sort of long term development that will be missing entirely from this game.

It sounds like there is room for a long grind for perfect gear if you want one, but with much less potential for gain than in previous games. If I'm gonna grind a dungeon 20 times to get a miniscule stat advantage, that's not enough incentive to me. That's epic work for lackluster payoff.


If you play every day for 3 months and have your full top tier gear with the skins you want, etc. Where do you go from there in progression besides completionist type accomplishments like exploration and all crafting recipes, etc. Are there realm ranks? What is going to be my incentive to play a "main" for 2 years straight? If it boils down to FPS type incentive (action and notoriety) or chase achievements, that's not really the type of long-term development I was hoping for.

Long term, the goals for character progression are map completion, gear, pvp rank, skill points, and completing dungeons/world bosses.

What does PvP rank do besides cosmetics or a reputation? Does PvP rank have any influence at all on the mechanics of combat?






I'm still into the game only because it has no subscription, just not gonna be in a rush at all to get it since there's no rush to stay competitive. Which is nice, sure, but still leaves me not caring if I play it now or in January. That doesn't make this a lesser or bad game - the market needs options like this, but it's not shaping up to be anything I'd spend years on, it seems.