Dissappointed in WvW

[NAH Grahm Cracker]

So I had a lot of fun in WvW on the first few days of release, but it's become far less entertaining ever since...
I'm not on a super high pop server (Darkhaven), so I can usually get in after a short queue, but once I get in I find that I only have 1 option; find and follow the zerg.
Usually, for Darkhaven, there isn't much of a zerg anyways, and almost never a big enough zerg to take on a tower or anything more than a supply camp here and there.

The #1 issue for me is that the WvW zones are so tiny, and so few objectives (there's only 2 towers per side in eternal battlegrounds), compare this to DAoC where there is 7 keeps per side and 4 towers per keep and tons of areas between. There were so many places solo, small group, and zerg fights could potentially break out. Sometimes a solo player could even take down an unclaimed, out-of-the-way tower if they wanted to.

Another problem I have is the reward system, I can spend all night in a good zerg vs zerg, and get a bunch of kills and none of them reward me a badge of honor, and on the same note I can pop in and kill 3 people and get 6 badges of honor in a row. Plus, who knows how many I've left just sitting on the battlefield because I have to notice and pick them up. I'm better off doing the daily jumping puzzles in each zone on average.
Also; I hate equipment driven reward systems, but no developer wants to do character driven rewards...that could be a whole different rant.
Also; I don't find the orb/Power of the Mists bonuses to be compelling at all, certainly not as much as DAoC's relics and Darkness Falls.

I also have problems with several game mechanics:
1.) Running - it's so incredibly easy to run away from a fight - maybe it's just my necromancer but it takes me a damn long time to kill someone 1v1, and even when I spam every snare I can, they often can get away. This is made worse by the size of the maps as they almost never far enough from a tower either. It's so bad that typically I can just run straight through the middle of a zerg that's bashing on a keep, and similarly, I can't stop anyone from running into the keep when I'm the attacker.
2.) Healing - every class can heal themselves, which just compounds the running issue since I have to kill everyone 1.5 or 3 times.
3.) Life after death/rallying (I don't know the correct term) - I hate this system in every way imaginable. It's especially terrible in zerg/keep fights where once someone goes down there's almost no way to finish them off. It's already easy enough to just not die in this game (see #1).
4.) Underwater fighting is terrible...

Lastly; most of the siege equipment takes away from the game in my opinion, but that is only a small problem compared to the other things.

What's everyone's take on WvW right now?

[Boxy Brown]

Dude... me, Age, Bogle and all of my RL friends are on Darkhaven. I'll send you a guild invite, we power level in the WvW zone all the time. Post your info and we can own around together.

I'm with you on the WvW front. I made a post a little while back ranting about how the zerg v zerg was wildly unsatisfying. That being said, the most fun I've had on the game yet has been getting 5 people together and roaming the WvW zone lighting up objectives and killing the defenders that come. The PvP is a lot of fun, but the WvW as a system is still pretty unpolished.

[NAH Grahm Cracker]

My Necromancer is level 57, and I have a level 11 Mesmer. I haven't been playing more than a few hours per day recently, just getting daily achievements and 100%ing zones.

I'm not really interested in power leveling, I don't see anything giving me a reason to be level 80 (except for whatever there is for level 80 PvE and gear progression). I like the PvE/leveling process.
If you guys are hardcore then I'd probably just slow you down, otherwise, if you guys want another guild member, my account name is Afrosatan.1430

[Zoobi]

I've had a ton of fun doing just what you said Boxy. I've also had a lot of fun cleaving zergs in two with my group of friends. We've been running two guardians with staffs for the swiftness buff and it is fantastic for flanking. I think as strategies evolve wvwvw will get much better and much more fun. From what I've heard from the people on Hedge of Denravi/Stormbluff Isle/Jade Quarry/Eredon Terrace is that the massive alliances on each of those servers make WvWvW incredibly fun as you actually have organization and not just mindless zerging.

The biggest thing that needs to change IMO is that orbs NEED to not snowball you so hard that it's hard to make a comeback. Currently once you get a lead on points/supply and gather up all the orbs because your keeps are much more heavily upgraded it is nigh impossible to lose the lead. They need to change orbs to where they don't give you any in-combat bonuses, just bonus karma/xp/gold while in the EB or borderlands.

[Graveworm]

So I had a lot of fun in WvW on the first few days of release, but it's become far less entertaining ever since...
I'm not on a super high pop server (Darkhaven), so I can usually get in after a short queue, but once I get in I find that I only have 1 option; find and follow the zerg.
Usually, for Darkhaven, there isn't much of a zerg anyways, and almost never a big enough zerg to take on a tower or anything more than a supply camp here and there.

The #1 issue for me is that the WvW zones are so tiny, and so few objectives (there's only 2 towers per side in eternal battlegrounds), compare this to DAoC where there is 7 keeps per side and 4 towers per keep and tons of areas between. There were so many places solo, small group, and zerg fights could potentially break out. Sometimes a solo player could even take down an unclaimed, out-of-the-way tower if they wanted to.

My guild runs around with a group of 3 and caps supply camps with no problem. Seeing as how supply camps are vitally important, I don't really understand how you feel that there is nothing for small groups to do.

Another problem I have is the reward system, I can spend all night in a good zerg vs zerg, and get a bunch of kills and none of them reward me a badge of honor, and on the same note I can pop in and kill 3 people and get 6 badges of honor in a row. Plus, who knows how many I've left just sitting on the battlefield because I have to notice and pick them up. I'm better off doing the daily jumping puzzles in each zone on average.
Also; I hate equipment driven reward systems, but no developer wants to do character driven rewards...that could be a whole different rant.
Also; I don't find the orb/Power of the Mists bonuses to be compelling at all, certainly not as much as DAoC's relics and Darkness Falls.

I agree with you on the Badges of Honor. They could stand to improve the delivery method for those. I disagree with you on equipment-driven reward systems, but that is a matter of opinion. I'm not sure about the orb bonuses yet, but that is something they will be able to address easily in a patch if they feel the need to.

I also have problems with several game mechanics:
1.) Running - it's so incredibly easy to run away from a fight - maybe it's just my necromancer but it takes me a damn long time to kill someone 1v1, and even when I spam every snare I can, they often can get away. This is made worse by the size of the maps as they almost never far enough from a tower either. It's so bad that typically I can just run straight through the middle of a zerg that's bashing on a keep, and similarly, I can't stop anyone from running into the keep when I'm the attacker.

It isn't always easy to chase down a player in a 1v1 situation, but that's fine in my opinion. It's doable, especially if your server controls the nearby towers, and in a group situation, it is nearly impossible to escape if the group uses their disables effectively. WvW isn't about ganking players 1v1. It's about controlling territory, and if you can get your enemy to run you are controlling your space effectively.

2.) Healing - every class can heal themselves, which just compounds the running issue since I have to kill everyone 1.5 or 3 times.

I'm firmly in the camp that prefers durability in PvP over burst damage. So I can't really agree with you here.

3.) Life after death/rallying (I don't know the correct term) - I hate this system in every way imaginable. It's especially terrible in zerg/keep fights where once someone goes down there's almost no way to finish them off. It's already easy enough to just not die in this game (see #1).

Again, this boils down to controlling territory. If you and your allies are able to rain AoE on the downed player, they are doing to a lot of difficulty getting the player back up. If you push them back, you'll be able to finish them off. If they push you back, they've done something to earn picking their player back up.

4.) Underwater fighting is terrible...

Underwater combat in this game is actually pretty damn good in my opinion. There are some PvE issues with it but that doesn't really apply much to WvW.

Lastly; most of the siege equipment takes away from the game in my opinion, but that is only a small problem compared to the other things.

Arrow carts might need another nerf, but I'm not convinced they do. What issues do you have with the other siege equipment?

[geathiel]

No game will ever replace or live up to DAoC's RvR, NAH. I found a couple years ago that the best thing to do is to just stop comparing games to DAoC. MMO's have evolved so much since then that it's almost a different genre of game now. I agree that the maps are wayyy too small. There's not even enough room for the sprawling open field fights DAoC had. The closest I've seen to that are fights on top of outposts which lasts about 30 seconds of one zerg running over the other - which DAoC had too but due to GW2s tiny maps it lacks the milegates, choke-points, large hills, (snare) water and other obstacles that gave smaller zergs advantages over the larger one.

I think you'll agree with me that part of what made DAoC great was the community it had both for PvE and RvR. Something about waiting on a portal pad with sometimes dozens of other players, joining the CG/BG and finding a group all on your own with random people was just great. It's also the community that made competitive 8v8, small man and solo play possible - and a huge amount of players decided to play that way. Every game since WoW has by design heavily detracted people away from playing that way. No one ever wants to go run around in open world when the majority of the people you're going to be fighting are either xping or zerging when you can just go play an arena or (ranked) battleground when those give the greatest rewards and less wait time. And now that there's a game that finally has an open world RvR zone that's by far the closest thing that we've had since DAoC and they offer no incentive to take any competitive group there. It's not even really problem that there is no real incentive or anything - it's that there's no Old Emain or Agramon Island or Beno bridge/coast, as you said there's just no room for it and if you ever tried to play solo, ran a lone group etc it would be add city which brings me to my next point.

This game has an even lower skill cap than WoW in PvP which is a pretty amazing feat because I didn't think it was possible to do that. Soft interrupt system, slow pace of play, and short duration CC are the three things that separate WoW from DAoC. Somehow GW2 has taken it to the next level of retard mode. Having a soft interrupt system reduced the need for positioning in WoW, but in GW2 it's basically not even needed. Most spells are instant and even most of the channeled spells are castable on the move or you only need to cast for a moment - in fact they don't even have 'interrupt' spells because, well, you don't need them. For some reason they thought giving people less CC across the board and giving basically all of the spells high CDs and low durations was a good idea and I'm not sure why. There is no visible GCD but there's obviously a very short internal one, the system itself is better than WoW's but since you don't need to micromanage certain spells and CC, really care where you are on the map and only have to smash your forehead on your numpad (bind weapon swap to + for maximum efficiency) to use all of your skills (another retard mode feature) the PvP is even slower. And lastly, I posted here like two years ago when they announced that there would be no true healers that that would be the worst idea ever and it looks like I wasn't wrong and people are finally agreeing with me now that the game is out. When you take these things into account you realize it severely punishes any player that wants to fight against bigger numbers which is generally why any guild or badass solo player would want to play in WvWvW, but when you have no healers, everyone can heal themselves and CC is basically non existent it gets to the point where it doesn't matter if you are vastly better, you just aren't going to win with significantly lower numbers.

Don't forget that DAoC didn't have RRs when it was released - you didn't even get XP or coin for kills. It would be cool if they added some kind of ranking system with incentives separate from what you earn in the PvP zone. As to your 4 points. I agree that some classes can just run away too easily. I play a Necro too and while I can spec and template around burst damage I agree that some classes (namely Mesmers and Thieves) can get away all too easily, I played a BG where we had 4 people chase a Thief for a good minute before he died because he could just keep stealthing. Healing system is retarded, ofn. The death system is also garbage and for a game that was marketed for PvP I'm not sure why they thought this would be a good thing to have outside of PvE, but I guess when your game designers are people with aspergers that think it's a good idea to make it so everyone just heals themselves to take away depth and so people can say "Hey, I really didn't like healing in other games and since it was really hard to find a competent one this is a really good idea. It takes an entire dimension out of the game, waters down both PvP and PvE aspects and completely sets lower limits on the amount of viable group combinations we can form now ! Genius !", it kind of makes sense.

Don't get me wrong. I think the game has some good ideas and I'm not not having fun. It's just that it's probably the "next great PvP game" as much as WAR was.

I forget why I ended up typing a giant rant review but I guess I do give 33% too much information~

[NAH Grahm Cracker]

My guild runs around with a group of 3 and caps supply camps with no problem. Seeing as how supply camps are vitally important, I don't really understand how you feel that there is nothing for small groups to do.

I really probably shouldn't have mentioned small groups, I just run solo almost all of the time. From my solo experiences, I can see where there would be a lot more to do as 3 people, espcially leading into my complaint about players running away so easily.
I just almost can't do anything as a solo player in WvW, and my complains about zerg fights doesn't make that a fun option.

Again, this boils down to controlling territory. If you and your allies are able to rain AoE on the downed player, they are doing to a lot of difficulty getting the player back up. If you push them back, you'll be able to finish them off. If they push you back, they've done something to earn picking their player back up.

But why bother with the whole downed system at all? Don't let your life hit 0... that's it... once you hit that mark its over and I get rewarded and you either have to wait around or run back. They can still keep the revival system and that's fine and dandy.
I'm saying that it seems to me the system is completely unnecessary and doesn't add to the experience. It just makes me bitter when someone goes down but I can't do anything about it. Then, when I die it doesn't make me any happier I lived, I feel like I died and I'm pissed and annoyed.

Arrow carts might need another nerf, but I'm not convinced they do. What issues do you have with the other siege equipment?

It's just another way for people to be uninvolved in the real fighting and cause lame standoff situations. I've already described how I feel regarding standoff situations in regards to the downed system.

Everything else you said, Graveworm, I think is opinion and influenced by our experiences (attempting to solo vs small group) and I don't really see any need to comment on it further.

No game will ever replace or live up to DAoC's RvR, NAH. I found a couple years ago that the best thing to do is to just stop comparing games to DAoC.

I probably should [stop comparing them], but it's only natural for me to compare to the two, I haven't played an MMO for several years. The comparison is also the only reason I even bought GW2 anyways - I heard it was similar and thought it would be fun to relive something close.
Everything else resounded with my own thoughts, sadly.

[Draconian]

I thank you for that post geathiel because it has taken me from "probably grab it over the winter when I'm bored" to "waiting until WvWvW is specifically revamped".

[geathiel]

It's not an entirely bad game Drac. I only picked it up because there's no monthly sub and it looked a lot less retarded than Panda and I'm actually glad I did because I do have fun playing - but we'll see if I'm still logging in daily in a month because I thought Rift and WAR were the best games ever too for the first two weeks I played them :P. The nice thing is that despite having no sub they've said they will be adding large content patches fairly regularly so it's not like the game will get any worse or even stay the same until they decide to release an expansion. You have to take my last post with a grain of salt as well because I'm part of a vast minority that wants small scale competitive open world PvP with incentives ala 8v8 in DAoC and this is probably never going to happen ever so I'm probably going to come here every time a new game comes out and tell you that the PvP is terrible. If you played a lot of keep warfare and zerging in DAoC then honestly I don't think you'll find too much to complain about. I think the system itself is better than DAoC's, I just don't like how it operates and I think the some of the game mechanics are garbage which is obviously overcome-able since I still log on. However if I remember correctly you're an old Mordred player so if you're looking for that roaming PvP and oldschool freestyle ganking style - stay away.

[Graveworm]

I really probably shouldn't have mentioned small groups, I just run solo almost all of the time. From my solo experiences, I can see where there would be a lot more to do as 3 people, espcially leading into my complaint about players running away so easily.
I just almost can't do anything as a solo player in WvW, and my complains about zerg fights doesn't make that a fun option.

Literally all you need is a couple of friends. That's not too much to ask for. If you insist upon running around solo, then yeah, WvW probably isn't for you.

But why bother with the whole downed system at all? Don't let your life hit 0... that's it... once you hit that mark its over and I get rewarded and you either have to wait around or run back. They can still keep the revival system and that's fine and dandy.
I'm saying that it seems to me the system is completely unnecessary and doesn't add to the experience. It just makes me bitter when someone goes down but I can't do anything about it. Then, when I die it doesn't make me any happier I lived, I feel like I died and I'm pissed and annoyed.

The downed system is the replacement for resurrection. You could resurrect people in DAoC (and just about every other MMO ever), so what exactly is the problem here?

It's not an entirely bad game Drac. I only picked it up because there's no monthly sub and it looked a lot less retarded than Panda and I'm actually glad I did because I do have fun playing - but we'll see if I'm still logging in daily in a month because I thought Rift and WAR were the best games ever too for the first two weeks I played them :P. The nice thing is that despite having no sub they've said they will be adding large content patches fairly regularly so it's not like the game will get any worse or even stay the same until they decide to release an expansion. You have to take my last post with a grain of salt as well because I'm part of a vast minority that wants small scale competitive open world PvP with incentives ala 8v8 in DAoC and this is probably never going to happen ever so I'm probably going to come here every time a new game comes out and tell you that the PvP is terrible. If you played a lot of keep warfare and zerging in DAoC then honestly I don't think you'll find too much to complain about. I think the system itself is better than DAoC's, I just don't like how it operates and I think the some of the game mechanics are garbage which is obviously overcome-able since I still log on. However if I remember correctly you're an old Mordred player so if you're looking for that roaming PvP and oldschool freestyle ganking style - stay away.

As further counterpoint to your previous post, there are definitely choke points on the map and I've been in many situations where choke points have allowed our smaller zerg to triumph over a larger zerg. Your jaded view seems to be keeping you from fully experiencing everything WvW has to offer.

[geathiel]

The downed system is the replacement for resurrection. You could resurrect people in DAoC (and just about every other MMO ever), so what exactly is the problem here?

Are you really trying to compare the two? Let me break it down for you. In one game with a binary interrupt system only a handful of classes out of dozens even have access to a resurrection spell which had a long cast time, high power costs and terrible butt range. Pro-tip: If one of the rezzers in your group dies in DAoC you're probably not getting back up if you go down as well. In the other game not only can anyone resurrect but it's a channel that is only interrupted by hard CC! Furthermore even when you are down you have access to abilities that don't only keep you in the fight by letting you do damage and CC but if you're left alone you can resurrect yourself. Not only is the system the worst thing I've ever seen in any game ever but it punishes any player that wants to solo and fight 1vX since it's so hard to completely take someone out of the fight. I can't think of any other MMO after DAoC where rezzing has been a relevant spell in PvP, mostly since pretty much none - other than AoC - has supported open world PvP.

Of course the system obviously isn't that much of a problem when you're zerging and I suppose I could see how you could compare it to DAoC if that's all you do. You die near them, you probably aren't gonna get up, if you die near your guys, someone will probably grab you. Obviously I speak strictly from a competitive and small scale point of view so we obviously play different aspects of PvP, but either way the system isn't one of the amazing innovative new things that will redefine PvP forever that a lot of you guys thought this game was going to bring.

As further counterpoint to your previous post, there are definitely choke points on the map and I've been in many situations where choke points have allowed our smaller zerg to triumph over a larger zerg. Your jaded view seems to be keeping you from fully experiencing everything WvW has to offer.

Obviously there's going to be some natural terrain advantages. The point is that the vast majority of the battles are at keeps or towers and the majority of the ones that are open field are 30 second steam rolls over people desperately trying to keep an outpost or one zerg running back to their tower or keep. The problem is that the map is so small that there is almost literally always a tower or keep within clip range so there's no need to ever fight open field. I'm sure a lot of people don't really care about whether they fight at a keep or on the grass but when I did enjoy running with the zerg some of the most fun fights I had were in Old Email at the milegates or on the hills through the ravine. Of course these battles still happen in GW2, I just agree with NAH that the map should be bigger to provide a fuller experience.

[Zoobi]

Of course the system obviously isn't that much of a problem when you're zerging and I suppose I could see how you could compare it to DAoC if that's all you do. You die near them, you probably aren't gonna get up, if you die near your guys, someone will probably grab you. Obviously I speak strictly from a competitive and small scale point of view so we obviously play different aspects of PvP, but either way the system isn't one of the amazing innovative new things that will redefine PvP forever that a lot of you guys thought this game was going to bring.

Uhh in tournament style SPVP the downed state is one of the most crucial areas of winning an engagement. I'm 100% sure it will become a crucial part of WvWvW when the more competitive servers move away from mindless zerging and the guilds who take wvwvw serious start sending groups to cut off supply camps. Hate to break it to you, but you just don't understand how the game operates if you think downed state is a major issue. You say you moved beyond the fact that DAOC 2 will never happen, but you seem to be trying to force the same mindset of DAOC into each and every new mmo you play. I know it was your first mmo(as it was mine) but its time to move on from that mindset. The downed state is 100% fine in any situation OTHER than mindless zerging as it is just another phase of the fight, much like knowing when to extend and when to back off and peel during an 8v8 engagement of DAOC.

Obviously there's going to be some natural terrain advantages. The point is that the vast majority of the battles are at keeps or towers and the majority of the ones that are open field are 30 second steam rolls over people desperately trying to keep an outpost or one zerg running back to their tower or keep. The problem is that the map is so small that there is almost literally always a tower or keep within clip range so there's no need to ever fight open field. I'm sure a lot of people don't really care about whether they fight at a keep or on the grass but when I did enjoy running with the zerg some of the most fun fights I had were in Old Email at the milegates or on the hills through the ravine. Of course these battles still happen in GW2, I just agree with NAH that the map should be bigger to provide a fuller experience.

The maps are absolutely gigantic. Sure there might be a lot of towers/keeps across each of the maps, but there is PLENTY of space for open field fighting. As an example, last night when wvwvw was winding down for NA players(it was around 1:00 am-ish) the main group that I play with decided we would take a stroll down to the bottom of the blackgate borderlands near blue lake keep and take and hold that supply camp. The 5 of us were able to hold off 15-20 people for a good 30 minutes until we were finally overwhelmed. During this long skirmish I overextended a bit too far, overestimating my ability to escape(I play the sword/dagger with shortbow lockdown thief that I linked in the RvB thread) I went down. My buddy(who is a guardian) proceeded to push up, hit his shield #5 and then throw down his staff #5 into the choke we were at preventing anyone from getting through while our warrior rezzed me. We then retreated for a quick reprieve while we waited for CDs to the supply camp about 100-150 feet away.

Zerging does have its purposes in WvWvW(cause less face it, you need a coordinated zerg to be able to take keeps and even well fortified towers), but the small man action you crave so much from DAOC is very alive here, there aren't very many big guilds sending 5 man squads to cut off supply yet in the grand scheme of things, but as far as I remember(and it's been a very long long time) 8v8 action didn't exist early on in DAOC either.

[geathiel]

DAoC wasn't my first MMO but it was obviously my favorite and the one I've spent the most time on :P I guess it's not that I don't compare games to it - I obviously always will - It's just that I've stopped expecting games to bring an open world PvP system that's on par. I'm not trying to force a mindset that I want a game with mechanics exactly like DAoC - hey I think it'd be interesting if a new game tried to reintroduce a hard interrupt system or long duration CC but let's face it, most of DAoC's mechanics were absolute garbage. I just think that making the game easier, slower and reducing the amount of CC is a step in the wrong direction.

I understand that the downed state plays a huge role in sPvP, that's why it's bad and stupid. I don't think it's a "major issue" I just think it's a terrible system that promotes playing poorly and that's fine because this game is obviously trying to appeal to the casual gamer, but that doesn't make it any less of a terrible system. If having a negative opinion on a bad mechanic makes it so I don't understand how the game works then I guess that's okay with me since I win the vast majority of my matches. Not sure how to respond to you trying to compare an in-game death mechanic to a personal skill set involving positioning and group coordination that's been used in every multiplayer game (including this one) since ever, so I won't...

I don't zerg and obviously haven't played as much WvWvW as I have sPvP so tbh I'll shut up about that until I do some real runs myself and let you guys tell it how it is~

[Draconian]

It's not an entirely bad game Drac. I only picked it up because there's no monthly sub and it looked a lot less retarded than Panda and I'm actually glad I did because I do have fun playing - but we'll see if I'm still logging in daily in a month because I thought Rift and WAR were the best games ever too for the first two weeks I played them :P. The nice thing is that despite having no sub they've said they will be adding large content patches fairly regularly so it's not like the game will get any worse or even stay the same until they decide to release an expansion. You have to take my last post with a grain of salt as well because I'm part of a vast minority that wants small scale competitive open world PvP with incentives ala 8v8 in DAoC and this is probably never going to happen ever so I'm probably going to come here every time a new game comes out and tell you that the PvP is terrible. If you played a lot of keep warfare and zerging in DAoC then honestly I don't think you'll find too much to complain about. I think the system itself is better than DAoC's, I just don't like how it operates and I think the some of the game mechanics are garbage which is obviously overcome-able since I still log on. However if I remember correctly you're an old Mordred player so if you're looking for that roaming PvP and oldschool freestyle ganking style - stay away.

I spent 90% of my DAoC PvP career on Mordred, yes. And your post along with the questions I asked about long-term development are what's keeping me so very unexcited for this game.

[Zavon]

Yeah Drac, I agree, it doesn't sound like the right game for you.

[Wulf]

Yeah Drac, I agree, it doesn't sound like the right game for you.

Yup

[Zoobi]

reducing the amount of CC is a step in the wrong direction.

I don't understand where you're coming from when you say they reduced the amount of cc. They reduced the durations, that's very true, but there is still VERY powerful cc that you need to use to lock people down long enough to kill them in sPvP. Cripples, Knockdown, Dazes, Immobolizes, various different knockbacks to peel with along with walls to cut off chokes. There's no mez's, long duration stuns/roots sure, but they wouldn't work in this game anyway as everyone in tournament pvp brings at least one cc break anyway.

I understand that the downed state plays a huge role in sPvP, that's why it's bad and stupid. I don't think it's a "major issue" I just think it's a terrible system that promotes playing poorly and that's fine because this game is obviously trying to appeal to the casual gamer, but that doesn't make it any less of a terrible system. If having a negative opinion on a bad mechanic makes it so I don't understand how the game works then I guess that's okay with me since I win the vast majority of my matches. Not sure how to respond to you trying to compare an in-game death mechanic to a personal skill set involving positioning and group coordination that's been used in every multiplayer game (including this one) since ever, so I won't...

Please do explain how it promotes playing poorly, you are still very vulnerable during downed state and it often means a death if you're overextended. I do respect your opinion on whether you believe it is a bad mechanic or not, but I would like to know your reasoning. If you believe it promotes extending too far and getting away with it, it doesn't as there's very little chance that your team will be able to get you up against another organized team.

I don't zerg and obviously haven't played as much WvWvW as I have sPvP so tbh I'll shut up about that until I do some real runs myself and let you guys tell it how it is~

As for your experience being 100% sPVP, do you do any set team TPVP? Pugging sPVP is just an uncoordinated mess for sure, but that's what pugs have always been in any multiplayer game ever.

I don't zerg surf in wvwvw either, sometimes when we have our 10 man on we'll cleave a zerg trying to attack our towers/keeps, but the majority of the time we're off taking supply camps and even trying to take towers to give our server some breathing room.

[Graveworm]

I am even more flabbergasted that you are complaining about the downed system in sPvP (I thought you were talking about WvW, since, you know, this is a WvW thread). If you can't finish a player 1v1 that's your problem (protip: all of the downed state CC has a cast time, is telegraphed, and can be dodged), and if you think you should have an easy time doing it 1v2+ you should re-evaluate the importance of having numbers present. Structured PvP is more about team effort than it is about being an individual superstar.

[Boxy Brown]

I am even more flabbergasted that you are complaining about the downed system in sPvP (I thought you were talking about WvW, since, you know, this is a WvW thread). If you can't finish a player 1v1 that's your problem (protip: all of the downed state CC has a cast time, is telegraphed, and can be dodged), and if you think you should have an easy time doing it 1v2+ you should re-evaluate the importance of having numbers present. Structured PvP is more about team effort than it is about being an individual superstar.

^^My biggest problem with GW2 PvP TBH. I'm not a numbers wins kind of guy. The downed state is the most frustrating thing I've ever encountered in PvP since getting stun nuked before I knew what purge was.

[Zoobi]

^^My biggest problem with GW2 PvP TBH. I'm not a numbers wins kind of guy. The downed state is the most frustrating thing I've ever encountered in PvP since getting stun nuked before I knew what purge was.

Numbers doesn't win typical spvp encounters though, unless you're talking about tpvp with actual organized teams. I can 1vs2 and 1vs3 on a mesmer all day against retards who are bad at the game. Given equal skill do you really think you should win a 1v2?

[Boxy Brown]

Numbers doesn't win typical spvp encounters though, unless you're talking about tpvp with actual organized teams. I can 1vs2 and 1vs3 on a mesmer all day against retards who are bad at the game. Given equal skill do you really think you should win a 1v2?

Given equal skill, of course numbers should win a fight. I can generally hold off 3 or 4 people on my mesmer for a matter of minutes. In fact, since it takes me so long to die, and I always down AT LEAST 1 of the enemies, my role in sPvP is frequently to occupy a bunch of the enemy team at a point so that my team mates can dominate the map elsewhere, but there's no way in hell I'm going to down and kill 3 or 4 enemies by myself unless they're either the worst gamers ever or AFK. Even once I down one, there are 2 or 3 there to rez him immediately. There's literally nothing I can do to win that fight. I could be the best player in the world, and it wouldn't change the fact that the best possible outcome for that encounter is that I escape. All I can do is survive for as long as possible to buy time, and that just isn't very fun. If there was no downed system, then it would be at least possible to defeat every single one of those players one by one through superior skill and positioning (a concept which seems to have been lost on most of the GW2 PvP population). THAT is what I'm talking about. If I'm better than them, they should die. It doesn't matter how many they are. I'd even be happy with a timer on how often you can revive someone in PvP. That would be fine. Everyone gets one revive every minute or something. But this 'everyone has unlimited resurrections' nonsense is just a bad formula for PvP. It's not a system that I can agree with, and it's going to piss me off every time.

[Graveworm]

Given equal skill, of course numbers should win a fight. I can generally hold off 3 or 4 people on my mesmer for a matter of minutes. In fact, since it takes me so long to die, and I always down AT LEAST 1 of the enemies, my role in sPvP is frequently to occupy a bunch of the enemy team at a point so that my team mates can dominate the map elsewhere, but there's no way in hell I'm going to down and kill 3 or 4 enemies by myself unless they're either the worst gamers ever or AFK. Even once I down one, there are 2 or 3 there to rez him immediately. There's literally nothing I can do to win that fight. I could be the best player in the world, and it wouldn't change the fact that the best possible outcome for that encounter is that I escape. All I can do is survive for as long as possible to buy time, and that just isn't very fun. If there was no downed system, then it would be at least possible to defeat every single one of those players one by one through superior skill and positioning (a concept which seems to have been lost on most of the GW2 PvP population). THAT is what I'm talking about. If I'm better than them, they should die. It doesn't matter how many they are. I'd even be happy with a timer on how often you can revive someone in PvP. That would be fine. Everyone gets one revive every minute or something. But this 'everyone has unlimited resurrections' nonsense is just a bad formula for PvP. It's not a system that I can agree with, and it's going to piss me off every time.

You shouldn't be able to win a fight like that. What you described is exactly how that fight should pan out strategically from your perspective (i.e. occupying numbers so that your team's numbers can get their job done) and if that isn't fun for you, maybe competitive PvP isn't your thing.

[Zoobi]

Given equal skill, of course numbers should win a fight. I can generally hold off 3 or 4 people on my mesmer for a matter of minutes. In fact, since it takes me so long to die, and I always down AT LEAST 1 of the enemies, my role in sPvP is frequently to occupy a bunch of the enemy team at a point so that my team mates can dominate the map elsewhere, but there's no way in hell I'm going to down and kill 3 or 4 enemies by myself unless they're either the worst gamers ever or AFK. Even once I down one, there are 2 or 3 there to rez him immediately. There's literally nothing I can do to win that fight. I could be the best player in the world, and it wouldn't change the fact that the best possible outcome for that encounter is that I escape. All I can do is survive for as long as possible to buy time, and that just isn't very fun. If there was no downed system, then it would be at least possible to defeat every single one of those players one by one through superior skill and positioning (a concept which seems to have been lost on most of the GW2 PvP population). THAT is what I'm talking about. If I'm better than them, they should die. It doesn't matter how many they are. I'd even be happy with a timer on how often you can revive someone in PvP. That would be fine. Everyone gets one revive every minute or something. But this 'everyone has unlimited resurrections' nonsense is just a bad formula for PvP. It's not a system that I can agree with, and it's going to piss me off every time.

If the downed system wasn't in the game, you still wouldn't be able to kill 3 or 4 players by yourself unless like you said they were the worst players to ever grace gaming. In theory you could, but theory is just that, theory and it doesn't work in practice. You couldn't do it in DAOC either unless the other players were braindead or RR1 against your RR5+ with badly templated gear in which case it's less about skill and more about your statistical advantage via better templates and more abilities at your disposal or in more extreme cases poorly balanced classes.

[Boxy Brown]

You shouldn't be able to win a fight like that. What you described is exactly how that fight should pan out strategically from your perspective (i.e. occupying numbers so that your team's numbers can get their job done) and if that isn't fun for you, maybe competitive PvP isn't your thing.

Look, I work with what I'm given. Occupying enemies is what I need to do to maximize my glory gain, so it's what I do. It still angers me that I can't possibly win the fight. It's not a measure of preparedness, skill, patience, or taking advantage of mistakes; it doesn't matter if I know every single one of the enemy's abilities and what they do, while they know none of mine; it doesn't matter if my positioning is perfect; it doesn't matter if my play is perfect. There's NOTHING I can do to win that fight. THAT is a frustrating concept to me, and the downed system is entirely responsible.

If the downed system wasn't in the game, you still wouldn't be able to kill 3 or 4 players by yourself unless like you said they were the worst players to ever grace gaming. In theory you could, but theory is just that, theory and it doesn't work in practice. You couldn't do it in DAOC either unless the other players were braindead or RR1 against your RR5+ with badly templated gear in which case it's less about skill and more about your statistical advantage via better templates and more abilities at your disposal or in more extreme cases poorly balanced classes.

Maybe not, but I could at least bring 1 or 2 with me. I usually down at least one person while holding a point from enemies, but that's not even the point. The point is that (if you want to compare it to DAoC) a 1vX is very possible and it happens frequently. In GW2 it's not possible. We're not even talking about a comparable level of badness between DAoC scrubs getting 1v3d and taking out 3 people in GW2 with the downed system. It's not even in the same league. You have to actually be Terri Shiavo levels of brain dead to lose a 3v1 fight in GW2. In DAoC it happened all the time. Three bad players would get kited, CCed and killed by one good player. It's not really about the gear either. Getting a perfect template in today's DAoC is a two-three day ordeal. Nowadays the most time consuming part isn't farming items, it's finding a spellcrafter/alchemist.

As if to prove my point, me and Widdar saw a cleric, sorc, theurgist trio, all RR3, kite and destroy an 8 man of hibs by DC dock the last time we played together. That could NEVER happen in GW2. I get that it's a different game, and that I shouldn't lay on my own expectations for what it should or shouldn't be, and I'm not asking anyone to change anything. All I'm saying is that the downed system frustrates me because it seems like it's the only mechanic in the game that's truly standing in the way of GW2 being a solo/smallman friendly game, and that's the kind of PvP that I enjoy.

[Zoobi]

As if to prove my point, me and Widdar saw a cleric, sorc, theurgist trio, all RR3, kite and destroy an 8 man of hibs by DC dock the last time we played together. That could NEVER happen in GW2. I get that it's a different game, and that I shouldn't lay on my own expectations for what it should or shouldn't be, and I'm not asking anyone to change anything. All I'm saying is that the downed system frustrates me because it seems like it's the only mechanic in the game that's truly standing in the way of GW2 being a solo/smallman friendly game, and that's the kind of PvP that I enjoy.

Don't know if you missed my earlier post, but that exact scenario happens daily for me and my friends. We went down to blue lake supply camp as our full group and proceeded to take it and kill 15-20 people for the next 30 minutes until we were finally overwhelmed by a mass of people. There are many ways for you to quickly and easily finish off players in downed state, just like there are many ways for people to quickly and easily push people off a downed player and then to revive them. It's just another phase of the fight, just like knowing when to extend and when not to in an 8v8 on daoc. Regardless I'm through with trying to make you understand how it's not as bad a mechanic as you make it out to be.

As an aside, did you know that quickness increases the speed in which you stomp/revive players? I often use my haste on my thief in fights I know I wouldn't have time otherwise to stomp a player.