+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 77
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    3,281

    Default Race/racism debate:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAszZr3SkEs



    The next is a Norwegian video program. There's a few comments I want to make not only about race but about Norwegian thinking in the political parties and the mass murder in Norway. The part I would be relating to the mass murder in Norway would be in the last three minutes if you don't find the video interesting enough to watch entirely.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19l3L-ldLas
    Last edited by Sillywilly; 08-13-2013 at 05:25 PM.
    "Nah man, a Paladin has to play fair and by the rules. Do you really see Silly not attacking a weakened opponent? Or rather, not exploiting a weakness to take an enemy down? He'd totally do that. It's the law of the jungle with Silly, even if he does have faith. I think he's principled, just not merciful." - Zavon

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    3,281

    Default Re: Race/racism debate:

    Will a flood of uneducated immigrants be the downfall of "western" civilization? Most people think this debate is an American or even America/England issue.

    Enter the race/immigration issue in Austria and Italy.

    Austria:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19l3L-ldLas

    Italy:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqzMzQ1egkk
    "Nah man, a Paladin has to play fair and by the rules. Do you really see Silly not attacking a weakened opponent? Or rather, not exploiting a weakness to take an enemy down? He'd totally do that. It's the law of the jungle with Silly, even if he does have faith. I think he's principled, just not merciful." - Zavon

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    4,149

    Default Re: Race/racism debate:

    "Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." ~ Voltaire

  4. #4

    Default Re: Race/racism debate:

    Last time I looked into this the only tangible thing I could find was that malnutrition in early life (first three to five years) permanently limits intelligence. If you want the city/country/world to be a better place, you shouldn't get on the racism bandwagon, you should get on the feed the hungry bandwagon or the infrastructure and stability for the 3rd world bandwagon. Be that the third world in Africa or the third world in the nasty part of your city.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    So Cal
    Posts
    1,028

    Default Re: Race/racism debate:

    Quote Originally Posted by VKhaun View Post
    Last time I looked into this the only tangible thing I could find was that malnutrition in early life (first three to five years) permanently limits intelligence. If you want the city/country/world to be a better place, you shouldn't get on the racism bandwagon, you should get on the feed the hungry bandwagon or the infrastructure and stability for the 3rd world bandwagon. Be that the third world in Africa or the third world in the nasty part of your city.
    qft

  6. #6

    Default Re: Race/racism debate:

    I think ethnic differences in mean IQ, physical ability, and preponderance to various health issues are undeniable medically or scientifically. However, I do not think those differences are the cause of Europe's problems.

    Europe's problem is that their stealth racism leads to culture segmentation. Instead of integrating people from other cultures into their collective national identity, they isolate and radicalize them. The computer programmer with the high IQ that is unable to find work because he is black is a perfect example of this stupidity. Unable to find work to support his family he will live on European social welfare, as will his children. Growing up in a government housing project, attending poor public schools and witnessing their father's inability to advance in society will result in the children turning bitter and resentful towards the country they are citizens of. North African Muslim ghettos in France are another great example of this. The European/Scandinavian farce of acting as if they believe in equal opportunity for all humans, but then isolating ethnic and migrant groups and refusing to employ them will be their undoing. So, they let in a bunch of immigrants, many unskilled workers, and then don't offer them any opportunities to join society, and instead put them in housing projects; yeah, that's a super idea.

    Europe will be an Islamic region by the 2050's, and when that happens Europe will get what it deserves. By not culturally integrating immigrants, it won't be the moderate/modern form of Islam we have here in the united states, it will be of the same medieval north African/middle eastern variety that their immigrants had back home.
    "The argument that “people now have more freedom than ever” is based on the fact that we are allowed to do almost anything we please as long as it has no practical consequences."

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    3,281

    Default Re: Race/racism debate:

    Quote Originally Posted by VKhaun View Post
    Last time I looked into this the only tangible thing I could find was that malnutrition in early life (first three to five years) permanently limits intelligence. If you want the city/country/world to be a better place, you shouldn't get on the racism bandwagon, you should get on the feed the hungry bandwagon or the infrastructure and stability for the 3rd world bandwagon. Be that the third world in Africa or the third world in the nasty part of your city.
    I'm not sure when you last researched it so I have no idea what might be old or new news to you. However since the mid 90s A LOT of information has come out that supports the notion of genetic differences in various traits across the races. Honestly unless someone is a religious person I have no idea why they would doubt a genetic difference in the races. We're separated by tends of thousands of years of evolution according to an atheist view. Look at how much difference man has created in canines through selective breeding. If a society like African societies never "evolved" pass the hunter gatherer stage of existence (hell most still haven't without European interference) then how are we supposed to rationalize that societies like Rome, various cultures in Europe and Asia, whom have glorified education and technological advancement for even thousands of years, would not have developed an artificial selection effect towards intellect? Being successful in these societies, which required more intellect than brawn because of what one did in these societies to earn a living, would lead to a bottle necking of the gene pool.

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    My experiences while living in Europe agree with Marou. Europe's closet racism is far greater than America's. In America we don't have so much "legitimate" racism. I.E., we have stereotyping but when a black guy comes in with a degree and some class we don't care that he's black anymore. It's not his race that makes us reserved in the first place it's the actions we associate with his race that makes us that way. When we realize he's not going to act that way, he's in. (At least most people I know). However in Europe they tend to hide "racist facts" because they say they don't want to be racist but no matter how much an individual proves their self they can't get past being of a different race.

    To put it short: In America once you prove you don't act "black" you're ok. In Europe it doesn't matter, you're always going to be black, just no one will say it to your face.

    Now that particular black guy, I'm not so sure about. I didn't catch where he lives but I'm gonna have to call bullshit on him. If he can't get a job because he is black where he is, then all he has to do is simply move to Stavangar. It's an international port/oil city, almost everyone speaks great English and they even have an international school.

    The truth is that being black in Norway/Europe isn't much different than being black in America. Their personal hygiene standards are still typically lower, they put less emphasis on education in the home, they are more prone to crime, and I swear the "it's because I'm black" is a genetically programed response. I had a couple of clients in Norway that were managers and they both were aggravated (both consider themselves to be left or liberal) because they couldn't correct the immigrants (black and muslim). If they tried they were accused of being racist and doing it only because of racism motivations, not because the person wasn't doing something correctly by Norwegian code.

    The one thing my experiences did disagree with Marou on was integration. At least in Norway I should say. Immigrants have every opportunity to integrate into society. The Christian blacks from Africa do a much better job of this than Muslims. Muslims in Norway are much like they are in the rest of Europe, they don't have to change to fit into society, your society is supposed to change to accommodate them. IMO that's on purpose. I fully believe the Muslims think they have the right to own the entire world and force everyone into Islam or kill them. In fact it's very controversial in Norway right now because of how the media likes to hide racial tension in the country but there are many Muslim clerics in Norway that cannot be deported because they'd get the death penalty in their home countries. These clerics (whatever they are called) are riding the Norwegian system in every way all the while preaching that Muslims should continue to migrate to Norway by any means necessary and take over the country. An immigrant going through the legal channels in Norway can get free language/culture classes and even free education (we're talking college). However they chose not to do it. The Polish/eastern block often come from low income social classes with lower educational backgrounds but do well in Norway because they do the language/culture courses and take advantage of educational opportunities. Plus they actually know how to work which is something the typical Norwegian is oblivious to.

    So, they let in a bunch of immigrants, many unskilled workers, and then don't offer them any opportunities to join society, and instead put them in housing projects; yeah, that's a super idea.
    This is very much true. Immigration has been a very hot topic in Norway for awhile and eventually led to the mass murder incident on Utoya Island. To the left/liberals in Norway any immigration policy is racist. To the right/conservatives in Norway there should be standards for who is allowed to get in, they should have the ability to do some kind of skilled labor, no criminal record, etc. Like in America, the left is in control of most of the mainstream media sources. So nothing pro-immigration policy is allowed to say it's fair share over the mainstream media. This is one of the primary things Breivik stated in his manifesto. That the only way to be heard would to be to shock the country out of lethargy.

    And that kind of brings me around to what I was going to say about the mass murder and how it's connected to the Norwegian video I posted. At the end the host of the show is talking to the guy from a Norwegian racism group, a left/liberal funded group in Norway. Instead of saying he disagrees with the facts that he was presented with, or that he doesn't agree with the methodology, etc he just states that this information has no business being on Norwegian television. He is for completely gagging something that he doesn't like. That represents about 60% of the Norwegian population. 50 of that 60 being what is considered far left/liberal like my mother in law.
    Last edited by Sillywilly; 08-14-2013 at 11:35 AM.
    "Nah man, a Paladin has to play fair and by the rules. Do you really see Silly not attacking a weakened opponent? Or rather, not exploiting a weakness to take an enemy down? He'd totally do that. It's the law of the jungle with Silly, even if he does have faith. I think he's principled, just not merciful." - Zavon

  8. #8

    Default Re: Race/racism debate:

    This is about as as big of a fuck you to integration as you can get.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...eekers.html?fb
    "The argument that “people now have more freedom than ever” is based on the fact that we are allowed to do almost anything we please as long as it has no practical consequences."

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    3,281

    Default Re: Race/racism debate:

    Quote Originally Posted by Marou View Post
    This is about as as big of a fuck you to integration as you can get.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...eekers.html?fb
    Yep, Norway has one of those. Except it's not like that press release makes it seem. The key word in that article that has to be understood is "asylum-seekers", IE not immigrants. These are essentially illegal immigrants (talking about Norway here) or people who have popped up on Interpol upon arriving to the country. My mother in law was actually heading one of these places up when we left but I believe she has resigned by now. A lot of these asylum-seekers are illegals that claim they fled their country to escape persecution/violence. Many of these European countries have a policy where they can't extradite someone back to their home country if it will mean their life. Many of these people end up in limbo for awhile until their record can be cleared or their identity confirmed. A lot if not most of these people turn out to be on the run from their home government for violations of the law such as violent offenses or dug offenses. I forget what my mother in law says the crime rate is like in these "safe houses" where they keep these people but it was pretty freaking nuts, even compared to Americas crime rate. Of course they showed a picture of a black guy in the article to imply something but the truth is these places are filled with Russians, etc. In fact a lot of the crime that takes place in these habitats I guess you could call them are conflicts between family/gang members who are on the run from the law in eastern block countries. They don't all operate the same, some allow certain people curfews in which they are allowed to leave the premises but have to be back by a certain time or they get picked up by the law. Others if their identity is shady or if it's suspect they could be a terrorist then they aren't allowed to leave the structure at until they have been cleared.

    The article isn't making it clear that these are not people who were out and about in society and then rounded up and blocked off. These are people that never made it past the airport so to speak because of legal reasons or lack of paperwork.

    EDIT My wife also just told me that these places serve as a temporary housing for people who are scheduled for deportation back to their countries of origin. She said for example some people have a limited work visa that only lasts for the length of time a construction job is going on. When that job is up they are supposed to return to their country of origin but many will try to stay and live under the radar. If one of these people is picked up then they will be assigned to one of these places until they can officially be deported.

    Anyways long story short the article wasn't accurately relaying the situation. These asylum-seekers are people from all sorts of cultures around the world and it's nothing if not frequent for cultural conflicts to end in violence in these habitats. (Just confirmed that my mother-in-law did quit her job at that place and move back to where she used to work on the island. There was like 2 stabbings and countless fights over the months she was there and my mother in law just doesn't have the stomach for that kind of shit.)
    Last edited by Sillywilly; 08-15-2013 at 01:31 AM.
    "Nah man, a Paladin has to play fair and by the rules. Do you really see Silly not attacking a weakened opponent? Or rather, not exploiting a weakness to take an enemy down? He'd totally do that. It's the law of the jungle with Silly, even if he does have faith. I think he's principled, just not merciful." - Zavon

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    I move around a lot.
    Posts
    1,370

    Default Re: Race/racism debate:

    How about we stop talking about which nationality/skin color/race/sexual orientation is ruining things for the rest of us (most childish notion I've heard all year, by the way) and concentrate on making sure everyone has the resources and opportunity to achieve their maximum potential? How about we concentrate on education and community building instead of the dumb shit most of us seem obsessed with like "national security" (whatever the fuck that means)? How about we fix the mountain of problems with the judicial/penal system instead of wasting billions of dollars of taxpayer money every year prosecuting, building jails for, and jailing non-violent drug offenders? How about everyone lives up to the ACTUAL moral/religious values of their fathers and really makes an effort to give more than they take?

    I mean, just imagine if everyone in the world had access to the same education that we do/did. No matter what you believe or how 'just plain wrong' your ideas about most things are, that image of the world is a better place in your eyes. It can't possibly not be.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    3,281

    Default Re: Race/racism debate:

    Quote Originally Posted by Boxy Brown View Post
    How about we stop talking about which nationality/skin color/race/sexual orientation is ruining things for the rest of us (most childish notion I've heard all year, by the way) and concentrate on making sure everyone has the resources and opportunity to achieve their maximum potential? How about we concentrate on education and community building instead of the dumb shit most of us seem obsessed with like "national security" (whatever the fuck that means)? How about we fix the mountain of problems with the judicial/penal system instead of wasting billions of dollars of taxpayer money every year prosecuting, building jails for, and jailing non-violent drug offenders? How about everyone lives up to the ACTUAL moral/religious values of their fathers and really makes an effort to give more than they take?

    I mean, just imagine if everyone in the world had access to the same education that we do/did. No matter what you believe or how 'just plain wrong' your ideas about most things are, that image of the world is a better place in your eyes. It can't possibly not be.
    I agree sorta Boxy but I think the debate comes down to whether a lack of those educational opportunities are the actual cause or not. Neither poverty or lower education levels directly coincide with violent crime in America. The truth is there are far more whites living under the poverty level and far more whites who are under educated. However has been noted in the mainstream media lately blacks are 10 times more likely to commit murder than whites and latinos combined.

    I think our society is getting to a point that certain demographics of people are getting tired of hearing how they only achieve things because they have it handed to them. Asians and whites are being constantly told that the only reason they out perform blacks/latinos is because of financial and education opportunities. However the facts don't show that asians and whites have more opportunity, they just actually make use of what they have. I also think the people like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, in some ways Obama and groups like the NAACP are pushing people towards a line they'll wish they didn't make them cross. Think back just 10 years ago and you'd never hear people say things like you hear in the mainstream media today. Today people will openly state that the majority of gun crime in our country is committed by blacks, and make statements like "we don't have a gun violence problem, we have a BLACK gun violence problem". People are even openly making comparisons to the US crime rate versus Europe countries except what it would be if we excluded blacks/latinos.

    I'm reminded of that Japanese general after Pearl Harbor that said something to the effect of "we have awoken a sleeping giant". It's obvious that there has been a lot of built up resentment amongst the white/asian (I'm hearing a lot of heat out of the asian communities lately) that has been muzzled by political correctness.

    (most childish notion I've heard all year, by the way)
    Gonna have to disagree with that 100%.

    When it came to race relations and controversy in the US I used to just be on the retaliatory defensive. I didn't like hearing about how black crime/etc were white peoples fault.

    Today, after living in Norway and experiencing 2-3 years of being able to walk around nearly any place you could get too without having to worry about our safety, my wife's purse, my car, etc I have a completely new outlook towards black/latino crime in this country.

    Now days I'm more focused on all the sacrifices and extra effort life takes to compensate for black culture. Racism is on the RISE in Europe for this simple fact. It used to be that Europeans (and I have personal experience with this through my in-laws) could talk a bunch of shit about racism and intolerance in America because they didn't have any first hand experience with it. It was easy for them to be sympathetic with people like Jesse Jackson because they didn't have to worry about getting home safe at night, about having some black teenagers through a brick through their car window, murder their daughter for her bike and stuff her into a trash can, etc. They didn't have to put up with being blamed for every short coming of a race or race culture.

    Today with the huge influx of Muslims and Africans over the last decade that story has changed and so has much of their outlook. No longer does my father in law just barf up "you just have to give people the same opportunity" out of reflex. Now days when he and some other Norwegians in the family hear something in our news you get more of a "you know that's like the way it is with the immigrants in Norway". Why? Because they are now getting first hand experience with race relations for the first time in their culture(s). Because they are no longer only looking at the controversy from the outside they are losing patience/tolerance with it.

    In this country, without a doubt we have to make personal sacrifices due to black culture. For example I witnessed a break in by a black teen the other day in my neighborhood. Had to go down to the police station and fill out a statement. While we were gone on vacation someone broke into our garage. A friend of mine shot a burglar off of his roof about a year back (lives down the street). There's been at least 4-5 arrests in our general area over the last 2 years and can you guess the race of each and everyone one of them?

    We are moving out of the neighborhood because we don't feel it's safe anymore and we want our children to go to a better school.

    But stop and make a list one day.

    We will be moving first of all for better schooling even if the crime wasn't higher. Why? Because the local public school is majority black, the crime rate is ridiculous there, drugs are rampant and there was even a drive by took place on the school campus.

    You wouldn't have that problem in Norway because there's not enough blacks to cause it.

    I'm walking through the house about twice a night now checking on things and especially my children. Why? Blacks breaking into houses in this area. Wouldn't have been a problem in white Norway.

    $250 bucks to fix a door that was kicked in by a couple of black teens while my house was rented out. Wouldn't have happened in Norway.

    There's at least 2 places on the trip to my parents house from where I live that nobody in their right mind would stop. Why? Because they're all black and they're known for being robbed by blacks.

    We don't go any further east than our street. Why? Because just a couple of streets down there was a drive by shooting where some black teens killed an old man because he beat them at poker the night before.

    Unless you live in Amish country or something you cannot go outside your door without having to make sacrifices due to the actions of blacks and to some lesser extent latinos. We don't realize it 99% of the time or don't think of it as a "sacrifice" because it's been like that from day one for us. In Europe that is not the case and even though a lot of the racism is closeted for now there's the risk of major major pressure build up and explosion like we saw in the mass murder in Norway. I predict we see racial blow back in Europe against Muslims/Africans that makes the civil rights movement in America look like a damn bake sale.
    Last edited by Sillywilly; 08-15-2013 at 01:47 AM.
    "Nah man, a Paladin has to play fair and by the rules. Do you really see Silly not attacking a weakened opponent? Or rather, not exploiting a weakness to take an enemy down? He'd totally do that. It's the law of the jungle with Silly, even if he does have faith. I think he's principled, just not merciful." - Zavon

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Saratoga, NY
    Posts
    1,074

    Default Re: Race/racism debate:

    Today people will openly state that the majority of gun crime in our country is committed by blacks, and make statements like "we don't have a gun violence problem, we have a BLACK gun violence problem". People are even openly making comparisons to the US crime rate versus Europe countries except what it would be if we excluded blacks/latinos.
    Where the hell are you living these days? My entire life experience screams that everything you are saying is just your experience, and probably the lens through which you are viewing the world. In fact after reading more of your post I can verify that, but I can't say that I'd act much different given the same life experiences; and this IMO is the root of this whole "debate". People who are systemically impoverished or uneducated can either blame "the man" or step up and take advantage of what is available, and unfortunately "Black" (urban) culture seems to have a very big push to blame it on "Whitey" (the better off).

    If I had to classify the real problem it would be overpopulation. Kill some motherfuckers off so we aren't competing for all these damn resources. I mean this seriously and in jest.
    Last edited by Pyrrhus; 08-15-2013 at 05:21 PM.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    3,281

    Default Re: Race/racism debate:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrrhus View Post
    Where the hell are you living these days? My entire life experience screams that everything you are saying is just your experience, and probably the lens through which you are viewing the world. In fact after reading more of your post I can verify that, but I can't say that I'd act much different given the same life experiences; and this IMO is the root of this whole "debate". People who are systemically impoverished or uneducated can either blame "the man" or step up and take advantage of what is available, and unfortunately "Black" (urban) culture seems to have a very big push to blame it on "Whitey" (the better off).

    If I had to classify the real problem it would be overpopulation. Kill some motherfuckers off so we aren't competing for all these damn resources. I mean this seriously and in jest.
    Can you elaborate on what you mean by my life experiences? Do you mean to say the mainstream media has always been allowed to say "black gun crime problem" where you live and not where I live?

    Just FYI I'm saying in the mainstream. Even the likes of Bill O'Reilly or Ann Coulter wouldn't be on a major cable news network saying "We don't have a gun problem we have a black gun crime problem". Of course we as individuals have always known and said that crime is mostly committed by blacks and latinos. But to have someone say that on national (or hell international) television is becoming far more common now days. What would have been labeled as out and out racism 10 or 20 years ago is just seen as a "controversial" statement today.

    I'm speaking on matters of the mainstream media here, not local.
    "Nah man, a Paladin has to play fair and by the rules. Do you really see Silly not attacking a weakened opponent? Or rather, not exploiting a weakness to take an enemy down? He'd totally do that. It's the law of the jungle with Silly, even if he does have faith. I think he's principled, just not merciful." - Zavon

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    3,281

    Default Re: Race/racism debate:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrrhus View Post
    Where the hell are you living these days? My entire life experience screams that everything you are saying is just your experience, and probably the lens through which you are viewing the world. In fact after reading more of your post I can verify that, but I can't say that I'd act much different given the same life experiences; and this IMO is the root of this whole "debate". People who are systemically impoverished or uneducated can either blame "the man" or step up and take advantage of what is available, and unfortunately "Black" (urban) culture seems to have a very big push to blame it on "Whitey" (the better off).

    If I had to classify the real problem it would be overpopulation. Kill some motherfuckers off so we aren't competing for all these damn resources. I mean this seriously and in jest.
    Can you elaborate on what you mean by my life experiences? Do you mean to say the mainstream media has always been allowed to say "black gun crime problem" where you live and not where I live?

    Just FYI I'm saying in the mainstream. Even the likes of Bill O'Reilly or Ann Coulter wouldn't be on a major cable news network saying "We don't have a gun problem we have a black gun crime problem". Of course we as individuals have always known and said that crime is mostly committed by blacks and latinos. But to have someone say that on national (or hell international) television is becoming far more common now days. What would have been labeled as out and out racism 10 or 20 years ago is just seen as a "controversial" statement today. Hell Ann Coulter essentially said "If it wasn't for blacks and latinos we'd have the crime rate of Belgium" a few weeks back. I don't know how old you are but I'm old enough to remember when that statement could be the point where she goes from commenting on Fox/CNN to being on youtube podcasts for the rest of her life. Even though it was an entirely true statement.

    I'm speaking on matters of the mainstream media here, not local. Criticisms of minorities and their culture are far more tolerated in the mainstream media (at least in some sources) than it was just a decade or so ago.
    Last edited by Sillywilly; 08-16-2013 at 10:26 AM.
    "Nah man, a Paladin has to play fair and by the rules. Do you really see Silly not attacking a weakened opponent? Or rather, not exploiting a weakness to take an enemy down? He'd totally do that. It's the law of the jungle with Silly, even if he does have faith. I think he's principled, just not merciful." - Zavon

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    450

    Default Re: Race/racism debate:

    I don't doubt at all that there are genetic differences in intelligence between races. That said, I agree with the line of thought that one shouldn't judge an individual based on the average of the group the individual can be categorized in. Saying that black people and white people as groups are equally athletic is, in my opinion, denying reality. Similarly saying that Michael Phelps must be less athletic than Al Sharpton because he is white and Sharpton is black is stupid. It is entirely possible to recognize there are group differences and also be able to recognize that it will not always serve you well to use that information to make assumptions about individuals of those races.

    I don't know how to solve the problems that come from racial differences. My philosophy has always been to step back and let the cream rise to the top. If that means I as a white man have to wallow in the working class beneath my jewish/asian overlords and above the impoverished negro, oh well.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    3,281

    Default Re: Race/racism debate:

    Quote Originally Posted by Stalis View Post
    I don't doubt at all that there are genetic differences in intelligence between races. That said, I agree with the line of thought that one shouldn't judge an individual based on the average of the group the individual can be categorized in. Saying that black people and white people as groups are equally athletic is, in my opinion, denying reality. Similarly saying that Michael Phelps must be less athletic than Al Sharpton because he is white and Sharpton is black is stupid. It is entirely possible to recognize there are group differences and also be able to recognize that it will not always serve you well to use that information to make assumptions about individuals of those races.

    I don't know how to solve the problems that come from racial differences. My philosophy has always been to step back and let the cream rise to the top. If that means I as a white man have to wallow in the working class beneath my jewish/asian overlords and above the impoverished negro, oh well.
    lol at that last statement.

    I agree with you on the individual thing. I also believe that even if there is, and there most likely is, a genetic difference that nurture can be as big or a bigger factor.

    However "judging" individuals is the easy part. Whether or not you can hire that qualified black guy isn't that big of a dilema. However how do you deal with the differences that affect society as a whole? The white majority is shrinking in America. The two races that are overcoming us? Blacks and Latinos, the two races with the highest crime rates. What will our society be like then? These two races make up like 18% of the population now don't they? But commit enough crime to make our crime per capita like 3-5 times higher that most of our white european peeers. What will this country be like when the blacks (10 times murder rate of whites and latinos combined) make up the majority of the population?
    "Nah man, a Paladin has to play fair and by the rules. Do you really see Silly not attacking a weakened opponent? Or rather, not exploiting a weakness to take an enemy down? He'd totally do that. It's the law of the jungle with Silly, even if he does have faith. I think he's principled, just not merciful." - Zavon

  17. #17

    Default Re: Race/racism debate:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sillywilly View Post
    lol at that last statement.

    I agree with you on the individual thing. I also believe that even if there is, and there most likely is, a genetic difference that nurture can be as big or a bigger factor.

    However "judging" individuals is the easy part. Whether or not you can hire that qualified black guy isn't that big of a dilema. However how do you deal with the differences that affect society as a whole? The white majority is shrinking in America. The two races that are overcoming us? Blacks and Latinos, the two races with the highest crime rates. What will our society be like then? These two races make up like 18% of the population now don't they? But commit enough crime to make our crime per capita like 3-5 times higher that most of our white european peeers. What will this country be like when the blacks (10 times murder rate of whites and latinos combined) make up the majority of the population?
    Hybrids tend to maximize the best aspects in animals, and we are. We'll just have to interbreed until everyone is light brown to dark brown, thus taking race out of the equation.
    "The argument that “people now have more freedom than ever” is based on the fact that we are allowed to do almost anything we please as long as it has no practical consequences."

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    945

    Default Re: Race/racism debate:

    So the solution to all of society's problems is a dose of jungle fever?

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    3,281

    Default Re: Race/racism debate:

    Quote Originally Posted by Esfires View Post
    So the solution to all of society's problems is a dose of jungle fever?
    Bragi will fully support this.
    "Nah man, a Paladin has to play fair and by the rules. Do you really see Silly not attacking a weakened opponent? Or rather, not exploiting a weakness to take an enemy down? He'd totally do that. It's the law of the jungle with Silly, even if he does have faith. I think he's principled, just not merciful." - Zavon

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    I move around a lot.
    Posts
    1,370

    Default Re: Race/racism debate:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sillywilly View Post
    I agree sorta Boxy but I think the debate comes down to whether a lack of those educational opportunities are the actual cause or not. Neither poverty or lower education levels directly coincide with violent crime in America. The truth is there are far more whites living under the poverty level and far more whites who are under educated. However has been noted in the mainstream media lately blacks are 10 times more likely to commit murder than whites and latinos combined.

    I think our society is getting to a point that certain demographics of people are getting tired of hearing how they only achieve things because they have it handed to them. Asians and whites are being constantly told that the only reason they out perform blacks/latinos is because of financial and education opportunities. However the facts don't show that asians and whites have more opportunity, they just actually make use of what they have. I also think the people like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, in some ways Obama and groups like the NAACP are pushing people towards a line they'll wish they didn't make them cross. Think back just 10 years ago and you'd never hear people say things like you hear in the mainstream media today. Today people will openly state that the majority of gun crime in our country is committed by blacks, and make statements like "we don't have a gun violence problem, we have a BLACK gun violence problem". People are even openly making comparisons to the US crime rate versus Europe countries except what it would be if we excluded blacks/latinos.

    I'm reminded of that Japanese general after Pearl Harbor that said something to the effect of "we have awoken a sleeping giant". It's obvious that there has been a lot of built up resentment amongst the white/asian (I'm hearing a lot of heat out of the asian communities lately) that has been muzzled by political correctness.



    Gonna have to disagree with that 100%.

    When it came to race relations and controversy in the US I used to just be on the retaliatory defensive. I didn't like hearing about how black crime/etc were white peoples fault.

    Today, after living in Norway and experiencing 2-3 years of being able to walk around nearly any place you could get too without having to worry about our safety, my wife's purse, my car, etc I have a completely new outlook towards black/latino crime in this country.

    Now days I'm more focused on all the sacrifices and extra effort life takes to compensate for black culture. Racism is on the RISE in Europe for this simple fact. It used to be that Europeans (and I have personal experience with this through my in-laws) could talk a bunch of shit about racism and intolerance in America because they didn't have any first hand experience with it. It was easy for them to be sympathetic with people like Jesse Jackson because they didn't have to worry about getting home safe at night, about having some black teenagers through a brick through their car window, murder their daughter for her bike and stuff her into a trash can, etc. They didn't have to put up with being blamed for every short coming of a race or race culture.

    Today with the huge influx of Muslims and Africans over the last decade that story has changed and so has much of their outlook. No longer does my father in law just barf up "you just have to give people the same opportunity" out of reflex. Now days when he and some other Norwegians in the family hear something in our news you get more of a "you know that's like the way it is with the immigrants in Norway". Why? Because they are now getting first hand experience with race relations for the first time in their culture(s). Because they are no longer only looking at the controversy from the outside they are losing patience/tolerance with it.

    In this country, without a doubt we have to make personal sacrifices due to black culture. For example I witnessed a break in by a black teen the other day in my neighborhood. Had to go down to the police station and fill out a statement. While we were gone on vacation someone broke into our garage. A friend of mine shot a burglar off of his roof about a year back (lives down the street). There's been at least 4-5 arrests in our general area over the last 2 years and can you guess the race of each and everyone one of them?

    We are moving out of the neighborhood because we don't feel it's safe anymore and we want our children to go to a better school.

    But stop and make a list one day.

    We will be moving first of all for better schooling even if the crime wasn't higher. Why? Because the local public school is majority black, the crime rate is ridiculous there, drugs are rampant and there was even a drive by took place on the school campus.

    You wouldn't have that problem in Norway because there's not enough blacks to cause it.

    I'm walking through the house about twice a night now checking on things and especially my children. Why? Blacks breaking into houses in this area. Wouldn't have been a problem in white Norway.

    $250 bucks to fix a door that was kicked in by a couple of black teens while my house was rented out. Wouldn't have happened in Norway.

    There's at least 2 places on the trip to my parents house from where I live that nobody in their right mind would stop. Why? Because they're all black and they're known for being robbed by blacks.

    We don't go any further east than our street. Why? Because just a couple of streets down there was a drive by shooting where some black teens killed an old man because he beat them at poker the night before.

    Unless you live in Amish country or something you cannot go outside your door without having to make sacrifices due to the actions of blacks and to some lesser extent latinos. We don't realize it 99% of the time or don't think of it as a "sacrifice" because it's been like that from day one for us. In Europe that is not the case and even though a lot of the racism is closeted for now there's the risk of major major pressure build up and explosion like we saw in the mass murder in Norway. I predict we see racial blow back in Europe against Muslims/Africans that makes the civil rights movement in America look like a damn bake sale.
    This would be based on sound logic except that the whites who are living under the poverty line are, for the most part, NOT doing so in an urban environment. Sure, being poor sucks, but poor white trash in the countryside can kind of just go on foodstamps and call it a day. Being in the poor districts in a big city presents it's own set of problems, and those are NOT racial issues, they're urban issues; these issues are the same ones that existed when Jews and Irish were the majority of the inner city population. And you know what, a lot of people back then said the same shit you're saying now. It's not a race thing. Fact. Not opinion. The kids in the school I volunteer at compared stories of how their mothers died at lunch on the first day. They were talking about it like it was just another topic of conversation like music or books.

    And yes, education is the issue. Every single one of the bottom 12% of schools in the US is an inner city school with minority populations of damn near 100%. They use math and literacy scores for inner city 3rd graders to estimate the number of prison beds they'll need. I shit you not. That's actually a real thing. If an inner city kid is off track in 3rd grade, somewhere a prison bed is being built for him. I mean, how fucked up is that? Literally all of the problems discussed in this thread come down to education. We need quality education in the worst communities, and eventually things will even out.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    I move around a lot.
    Posts
    1,370

    Default Re: Race/racism debate:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sillywilly View Post
    I agree sorta Boxy but I think the debate comes down to whether a lack of those educational opportunities are the actual cause or not. Neither poverty or lower education levels directly coincide with violent crime in America. The truth is there are far more whites living under the poverty level and far more whites who are under educated. However has been noted in the mainstream media lately blacks are 10 times more likely to commit murder than whites and latinos combined.

    I think our society is getting to a point that certain demographics of people are getting tired of hearing how they only achieve things because they have it handed to them. Asians and whites are being constantly told that the only reason they out perform blacks/latinos is because of financial and education opportunities. However the facts don't show that asians and whites have more opportunity, they just actually make use of what they have. I also think the people like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, in some ways Obama and groups like the NAACP are pushing people towards a line they'll wish they didn't make them cross. Think back just 10 years ago and you'd never hear people say things like you hear in the mainstream media today. Today people will openly state that the majority of gun crime in our country is committed by blacks, and make statements like "we don't have a gun violence problem, we have a BLACK gun violence problem". People are even openly making comparisons to the US crime rate versus Europe countries except what it would be if we excluded blacks/latinos.

    I'm reminded of that Japanese general after Pearl Harbor that said something to the effect of "we have awoken a sleeping giant". It's obvious that there has been a lot of built up resentment amongst the white/asian (I'm hearing a lot of heat out of the asian communities lately) that has been muzzled by political correctness.



    Gonna have to disagree with that 100%.

    When it came to race relations and controversy in the US I used to just be on the retaliatory defensive. I didn't like hearing about how black crime/etc were white peoples fault.

    Today, after living in Norway and experiencing 2-3 years of being able to walk around nearly any place you could get too without having to worry about our safety, my wife's purse, my car, etc I have a completely new outlook towards black/latino crime in this country.

    Now days I'm more focused on all the sacrifices and extra effort life takes to compensate for black culture. Racism is on the RISE in Europe for this simple fact. It used to be that Europeans (and I have personal experience with this through my in-laws) could talk a bunch of shit about racism and intolerance in America because they didn't have any first hand experience with it. It was easy for them to be sympathetic with people like Jesse Jackson because they didn't have to worry about getting home safe at night, about having some black teenagers through a brick through their car window, murder their daughter for her bike and stuff her into a trash can, etc. They didn't have to put up with being blamed for every short coming of a race or race culture.

    Today with the huge influx of Muslims and Africans over the last decade that story has changed and so has much of their outlook. No longer does my father in law just barf up "you just have to give people the same opportunity" out of reflex. Now days when he and some other Norwegians in the family hear something in our news you get more of a "you know that's like the way it is with the immigrants in Norway". Why? Because they are now getting first hand experience with race relations for the first time in their culture(s). Because they are no longer only looking at the controversy from the outside they are losing patience/tolerance with it.

    In this country, without a doubt we have to make personal sacrifices due to black culture. For example I witnessed a break in by a black teen the other day in my neighborhood. Had to go down to the police station and fill out a statement. While we were gone on vacation someone broke into our garage. A friend of mine shot a burglar off of his roof about a year back (lives down the street). There's been at least 4-5 arrests in our general area over the last 2 years and can you guess the race of each and everyone one of them?

    We are moving out of the neighborhood because we don't feel it's safe anymore and we want our children to go to a better school.

    But stop and make a list one day.

    We will be moving first of all for better schooling even if the crime wasn't higher. Why? Because the local public school is majority black, the crime rate is ridiculous there, drugs are rampant and there was even a drive by took place on the school campus.

    You wouldn't have that problem in Norway because there's not enough blacks to cause it.

    I'm walking through the house about twice a night now checking on things and especially my children. Why? Blacks breaking into houses in this area. Wouldn't have been a problem in white Norway.

    $250 bucks to fix a door that was kicked in by a couple of black teens while my house was rented out. Wouldn't have happened in Norway.

    There's at least 2 places on the trip to my parents house from where I live that nobody in their right mind would stop. Why? Because they're all black and they're known for being robbed by blacks.

    We don't go any further east than our street. Why? Because just a couple of streets down there was a drive by shooting where some black teens killed an old man because he beat them at poker the night before.

    Unless you live in Amish country or something you cannot go outside your door without having to make sacrifices due to the actions of blacks and to some lesser extent latinos. We don't realize it 99% of the time or don't think of it as a "sacrifice" because it's been like that from day one for us. In Europe that is not the case and even though a lot of the racism is closeted for now there's the risk of major major pressure build up and explosion like we saw in the mass murder in Norway. I predict we see racial blow back in Europe against Muslims/Africans that makes the civil rights movement in America look like a damn bake sale.
    This would be based on sound logic except that the whites who are living under the poverty line are, for the most part, NOT doing so in an urban environment. Sure, being poor sucks, but poor white trash in the countryside can kind of just go on foodstamps and call it a day. Being in the poor districts in a big city presents it's own set of problems, and those are NOT racial issues, they're urban issues; these issues are the same ones that existed when Jews and Irish were the majority of the inner city population. And you know what, a lot of people back then said the same shit you're saying now. It's not a race thing. Fact. Not opinion. The kids in the school I volunteer at compared stories of how their mothers died at lunch on the first day. They were talking about it like it was just another topic of conversation like music or books.

    And yes, education is the issue. Every single one of the bottom 12% of schools in the US is an inner city school with minority populations of damn near 100%. They use math and literacy scores for inner city 3rd graders to estimate the number of prison beds they'll need. I shit you not. That's actually a real thing. If an inner city kid is off track in 3rd grade, somewhere a prison bed is being built for him. I mean, how fucked up is that? Literally all of the problems discussed in this thread come down to education. We need quality education in the worst communities, and eventually things will even out.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    945

    Default Re: Race/racism debate:

    Just because education correlates with criminal behavior doesn't mean that its the cause. I'm more of the mind that the problem is in the home and the culture the kids are growing up in, and that their lack of dedication to education is as much a symptom of those things as their lack of dedication to peace and lawfulness.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Saratoga, NY
    Posts
    1,074

    Default Re: Race/racism debate:

    Nobody wants to teach to the inner cities, and they don't want to be taught. My sister went through Teach for America for a little while and she was called a racist by 10 year old black kids in alabama. There was no administrative control and kids basically act out how they want.
    Last edited by Pyrrhus; 08-17-2013 at 09:52 PM.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    I move around a lot.
    Posts
    1,370

    Default Re: Race/racism debate:

    Quote Originally Posted by Esfires View Post
    Just because education correlates with criminal behavior doesn't mean that its the cause. I'm more of the mind that the problem is in the home and the culture the kids are growing up in, and that their lack of dedication to education is as much a symptom of those things as their lack of dedication to peace and lawfulness.
    DISCLAIMER... DRUNK! TAKE THIS AS YOU WILL.

    Yes it most certainly does. I respect your views, but you're wrong and here's why: Kids have a hunger for knowledge. Those who don't have quality education as a default option appreciate it all the more. You can say that the culture is this and that but the fact of the matter is that there are people in every demographic that will strive to accomplish to the best of their abilities. If we deny ability to people just because their parents and grandparents and great grandparents grew up in a shitty place then srsly... what the fuck? Shitty opportunity does not equal shitty students. People who say that blacks are just stupid because hurr durr McHurr-phurr do that. You're (not you, but people who think race ACTUALLY matters) not just being stupid, you're slowing down the progress of all mankind.

    Also, you can't say that certain people have a lack of dedication to peace and lawfulness. That's such bullshit and I think you know it. I have a lack of dedication to lawfulness. If there's a law I feel is unjust I make it my civic duty to break it. Does that make me a minority? No, so that whole line of reasoning is dumb.

    But yeah. I'm super drunk so don't take this whole thing seriously. I'll revisit this post in the morning and see if I agree with what drunk me has written.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Race/racism debate:

    Quote Originally Posted by Esfires View Post
    Just because education correlates with criminal behavior doesn't mean that its the cause. I'm more of the mind that the problem is in the home and the culture the kids are growing up in, and that their lack of dedication to education is as much a symptom of those things as their lack of dedication to peace and lawfulness.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boxy Brown View Post
    Yes it most certainly does.

    I'm with Esfires. I think education is a distraction from the economic and cultural factors.

    If you have a home, a job, property you enjoy and/or rely on, and you can find someone to love then you are automatically non-violent. You want to maintain what you've got. You want to go to the store or do recreational things and then return to who and what you have unmolested. You just want those things to be safe. This isn't rocket science, it's not even conscious thought. That's just the sheep that people are. Eat, sleep, fuck. A place to be, a thing to do and something to look forward to.

    If you haven't known that life because you grew up as one of six siblings with one parent and/or have no hope for getting it, then you are back to taking it or building it and both will push a person to be ready for conflict. An intelligent person may avoid conflict better or be more likely to succeed, but it's not a unique struggle for them.

    I brought up malnutrition at a young age -> lowered intelligence thinking more about merging populaces and integration.
    Last edited by VKhaun; 08-18-2013 at 02:27 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts