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    Default South Africa On the Path to Zimbabwe

    "The argument that “people now have more freedom than ever” is based on the fact that we are allowed to do almost anything we please as long as it has no practical consequences."

  2. #2
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    Default Re: South Africa On the Path to Zimbabwe

    The war between the Africans and the Boers has been ongoing since the middle of the 17th century. This is simply the endgame and the final payback for sailing up to a place that has inhabitants and declaring it a colony and enslaving the locals.

    I don't condone murder and I think the people torturing and killing the white farmers should be shot down like dogs but as I view this through the perspective of history I can't say I am surprised. The Boers and later their descendants the South Africans brutally oppressed the majority population of Africans for a long time.

    What comes around goes around.
    -Agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.

    -"Personally, I play a warlock to set people on fire as they run in fear while I steal their souls. As an added perk, I play an undead warlock so I can eat their brains afterwards. I suppose a better question is, why do people play anything else?" (Unknown WoW forum poster)

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    Default Re: South Africa On the Path to Zimbabwe

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Mars View Post
    The war between the Africans and the Boers has been ongoing since the middle of the 17th century. This is simply the endgame and the final payback for sailing up to a place that has inhabitants and declaring it a colony and enslaving the locals.

    I don't condone murder and I think the people torturing and killing the white farmers should be shot down like dogs but as I view this through the perspective of history I can't say I am surprised. The Boers and later their descendants the South Africans brutally oppressed the majority population of Africans for a long time.

    What comes around goes around.
    At it's core, this right here is what I think is the issue I have with Social Justice Warriors and Neo-liberalism (Not Classical Liberalism of the bygone decades). It is the difference between revenge and justice. At some point, we have to say, "Ok, our ancestors fucked your ancestors, let's go forward" Apartheid ended almost 30 years ago (though in the greatest irony it seems like South Africa was better for BOTH blacks and whites under it). Just think about how much the world has seriously changed in 30 years, and how much progress could have been accomplished with leaders that were willing to move forward. That is what Justice is about-- how we can move forward from a wrong. I know Vietnamese families that immigrated to the US during the Vietnam war, with virtually nothing, that have set up multi-generational successful businesses. I hate this lust for revenge that modern leftist have, that both absolves them of any real responsibility for their actions and also somehow praises their hateful thinking for being against whatever "big historical evil" (insert whoever was the ruling class of whatever society as the evil).

    I don't think that what comes around goes around is ok. These people should have UN or American involvement for protection. The same with Syria too.
    "Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." ~ Voltaire

    2 Kings 2:23-24: "....Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys."

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    Default Re: South Africa On the Path to Zimbabwe

    Do you seriously think 30 years is enough time to get over 300+ years of oppression? The Vietnamese comparison is utterly irrelevant, by the way.

    The fact that you can even say that life was better for the Africans under apartheid only demonstrates that you know absolutely nothing about the subject (or you are a white supremacist hate monger). You are only proving that most Americans are utterly ignorant of any sort of knowledge of world history.

    I do agree that it may be time for UN intervention.

    I also don't want to upset the spiders living in your skull that are whispering to you but I do not approve of what is going on, I simply understand why it is happening. I understand it because I have an education that you and most other people lack.
    -Agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.

    -"Personally, I play a warlock to set people on fire as they run in fear while I steal their souls. As an added perk, I play an undead warlock so I can eat their brains afterwards. I suppose a better question is, why do people play anything else?" (Unknown WoW forum poster)

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    Default Re: South Africa On the Path to Zimbabwe

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Mars View Post
    Do you seriously think 30 years is enough time to get over 300+ years of oppression? The Vietnamese comparison is utterly irrelevant, by the way.

    The fact that you can even say that life was better for the Africans under apartheid only demonstrates that you know absolutely nothing about the subject (or you are a white supremacist hate monger). You are only proving that most Americans are utterly ignorant of any sort of knowledge of world history.

    I do agree that it may be time for UN intervention.

    I also don't want to upset the spiders living in your skull that are whispering to you but I do not approve of what is going on, I simply understand why it is happening. I understand it because I have an education that you and most other people lack.
    I wasn't attempting to equate the two. I was stating that there exists a kind of difference in mentality of circumstance in the face of tragedy. You may well be right about the facts you believe correct in your historical education-- I don't mean to challenge your knowledge on the subject; only your attitude that "what goes around comes around". Who the bigger asshole was is what is irrelevant. I was under the impression that you did not think UN intervention was necessary on the basis of some laundry list of historical grievances. I'm glad to see that I was mistaken.
    "Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." ~ Voltaire

    2 Kings 2:23-24: "....Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys."

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    Default Re: South Africa On the Path to Zimbabwe

    What goes around comes around is called history. Cultures build up animosity that cannot be waved away by saying "hey guys, be reasonable." Anyone who doesn't understand this is ignorant.

    I recall reading an article that outlined a plan to deal with the violence committed by the Tamil tribes on the Sri Lankans. Some optimistic idiot was planning to go in and bring the parties together and negotiate with them. The fact is that Tamil headhunters have been going to Sri Lanka to kill people and take their heads for at least 1000 years and recently the Sri Lankans have taken to massacring the Tamils.

    The jesus lickers were killing each other for over 1200 years and it took a major change in society and technology (aka the Enlightenment) to reduce the killing to mere hatred.

    The Iranians hate us because we supported a brutal dictator from the end of WWII to 1979.

    Americans are a special breed of stupid that believes that the weight of history can be hand waved away as inconvenient.
    -Agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.

    -"Personally, I play a warlock to set people on fire as they run in fear while I steal their souls. As an added perk, I play an undead warlock so I can eat their brains afterwards. I suppose a better question is, why do people play anything else?" (Unknown WoW forum poster)

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    Default Re: South Africa On the Path to Zimbabwe

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Mars View Post
    Americans are a special breed of stupid that believes that the weight of history can be hand waved away as inconvenient.
    Okay, I'm with you on this, but twice now you've started this thought and not finished it.

    1) If not by talking and trying to bring people to reason, what's the mechanism here where history would be overcome and how long should it take?

    2) What was the point of your first post? Either the history with the Boers matters or it doesn't. You can't claim you're against murder and it means nothing for the perpetrators, at the same time you whip Zavon for not acknowledging that it means some undefined "something". It doesn't mean you condone what happened, but it doesn't mean nothing. So what does it mean?
    Last edited by VKhaun; 04-20-2017 at 10:19 PM.
    Nowadays when people start to get killed by fireballs, no one says they need to dodge the fireball anymore; they say they need to go get a fire resist ring and some ice damage so they don't have to.

  8. #8

    Default Re: South Africa On the Path to Zimbabwe

    Perhaps Alex thinks they should have had a 2 state solution when they surrendered SA to the Africans. A small white state and a larger black state. I don't disagree.

    From a purely practical standpoint the sort of integration South Africa has attempted, where the uneducated formerly oppressed people (blacks) suddenly have total power and the educated ex-ruling class of people (whites) have little, will not possibly work out well. Of course, it's too late for a different solution now. As a result, I believe SA will over the course of the next decade genocide the whites (ala Zimbabwe/Rhodesia), sell off all their valuable resources to the Asians and Indians (via corrupt officials and bribes), and be another warlord filled failed state in 30 years when their former economy is but a memory.

    The naivety of this kumbaya, diversity is our strength shit can get pretty trying when you're talking about groups that fucking hate each other. Yet over and over tribes, clans, and different ethnic groups that loathe each other have been forced into integrated countries. It's the story of the middle east, the story of Africa, and is becoming the story of Europe - it's a story of perpetual failure. The lesson has not yet been learned.
    "The argument that “people now have more freedom than ever” is based on the fact that we are allowed to do almost anything we please as long as it has no practical consequences."

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    Default Re: South Africa On the Path to Zimbabwe

    I'll answer at length tomorrow, but for now I only have time to say this: in history there are no solutions, there are only outcomes.
    -Agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.

    -"Personally, I play a warlock to set people on fire as they run in fear while I steal their souls. As an added perk, I play an undead warlock so I can eat their brains afterwards. I suppose a better question is, why do people play anything else?" (Unknown WoW forum poster)

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    Default Re: South Africa On the Path to Zimbabwe

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Mars View Post
    What goes around comes around is called history. Cultures build up animosity that cannot be waved away by saying "hey guys, be reasonable." Anyone who doesn't understand this is ignorant.
    I agree that it can't be waved off easily, yet the only way to ever move forward is to do exactly that. We are talking about torture, murder and genocide. These are crimes so heinous that they cannot be justified, by any reason or historical account. Proponents of such behavior and especially actors, should be resolutely crushed.

    I recall reading an article that outlined a plan to deal with the violence committed by the Tamil tribes on the Sri Lankans. Some optimistic idiot was planning to go in and bring the parties together and negotiate with them. The fact is that Tamil headhunters have been going to Sri Lanka to kill people and take their heads for at least 1000 years and recently the Sri Lankans have taken to massacring the Tamils.

    The jesus lickers were killing each other for over 1200 years and it took a major change in society and technology (aka the Enlightenment) to reduce the killing to mere hatred.
    Maybe that person was an idiot for trying to negotiate a peace. Maybe they didn't have the glorious education in history that you seem to have. What would you have done in their shoes? How would Alex Mars do it right?

    The Iranians hate us because we supported a brutal dictator from the end of WWII to 1979.
    Yet, most Iranians have a positive view of America:

    Shahghasemi, E., Heisey, D. R., & Mirani, G. (October 01, 2011). How do Iranians and U.S. Citizens perceive each other: A systematic review. Journal of Intercultural Communication, 27.
    Shahghasemi, E., & Heisey, D. R. (January 01, 2009). The Cross-Cultural Schemata of Iranian-American People Toward Each Other: A Qualitative Approach. Intercultural Communication Studies, 18, 1, 143-160.

    Maybe your thoughts on these topics, are a little outdated.

    Americans are a special breed of stupid that believes that the weight of history can be hand waved away as inconvenient.
    You know that little Enlightenment thing you were talking about, that stopped that Jesus lickers from killing each other? Well here is a quote from one the great minds of that Age:

    "Indeed, history is nothing more than a tableau of crimes and misfortunes." ~Voltaire
    Last edited by Zavon; 04-21-2017 at 12:10 PM.
    "Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." ~ Voltaire

    2 Kings 2:23-24: "....Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys."

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    Default Re: South Africa On the Path to Zimbabwe

    Torture, murder, and genocide are horrible things but they have been going on for all of recorded history. The Enlightenment brought a measure of sanity to Europe and that was the result of a convergence of technological advances and weariness brought about by the horrors of the 30 Years War and other religious wars of the 16th and 17th century. Of course, this only applied to white Europeans as anyone of colour who was in the way of a European colony was freely tortured and killed. The main (and pretty much only) successful effort to end torture and genocide in one limited part of the world was World War Two, at the cost of approximately (these number are hard to pin down with total total accuracy) 1 trillion dollars (in 1945 dollars) and 60 million lives. Clearly then changing this kind of behaviour is expensive. Bake sales, sing-alongs, consciousness raising events, books, and negotiation efforts like those I mentioned above that allow people to feel good and let them think that at least they are trying to do something are basically worthless efforts that accomplish nothing.

    In the case of South Africa we have the only remaining white European colony in Africa, all others have been driven out (when I say Africa I refer to Sub Saharan Africa, as North African can be considered a separate "continent" due to the effect of the Sahara desert). Any expectation that it can survive in the long term as a country with white Europeans is unrealistic. Any whites there should pack their bags and get the fuck out now.

    Zavon, the only people who think that an oppressed people should just move on and get over how they were treated are members of a privileged caste that have never been oppressed or mistreated as a people. I'd guess that Zavon is a white protestant and falls into the category of never having been oppressed. There are only two white ethnic groups that have been fucked with long term that come to mind, the Irish and the Jews. I'm going to focus on the Irish (my ethnic group, by the way) for a moment.

    Ireland was invaded during the reign of William the Conqueror, although to be fair the Normans were invited in by one group of the Irish to support them in a fight with another group of Irish. This was deemed an illegal invasion by the English crown and the English moved to take Ireland for themselves. This means that Ireland or parts of Ireland have been held by the English for over 1000 years. At the beginning of the 20th century Ireland was partitioned and the British relinquished their hold all but Northern Ireland. The pot still kept boiling until the late 20th century and really it took 9/11 to make the Irish renounce terrorism, and that only happened because the USA was pissed off and terrorism totally fell out of fashion in the West. Even so the hatred there still simmers and could break out into fighting again.

    Now Zavon asked a valid question, what method would a cynical historian like myself deem likely to actually solve a problem like the one in Sri Lanka or the Middle East or other places ethnic groups are killing each other? You are not going to like the answer, but my plan would actually have a chance of working where negotiations and benefit concerts would fail.

    First off, the approach would have to be long term, as in multi-generational. It would have to be coercive. It would probably involve killing people (see: WWII).

    You would need to take children of all the competing ethnic/religious groups away from their parents to be raised and educated to tolerate each other and get along with each other. You would teach them their cultural values but redact any elements that promote killing people of other ethnic/religious groups. You would need to let time pass so that the older generations that would propagate hatred die off (obviously you would have to gather members of the ethnic groups who were not committed to hatred to raise these children but there is always a rational minority who abhor violence in any ethnic group). You might have to kill off some elements of the ethnic groups who are committed to violence and hatred. In a few generations you would have a population of people who would get along.

    This approach would be expensive and it would be unacceptable to most people but it might actually work. Plans that are based around trying to bring opposing parties that have long term hatred for each other to a negotiating table will not work. Plans that are subject to the whims of four year political cycles will not work. Plans by people who want to feel like they are doing something positive will not work.

    The only other realistic option is to let the competing ethnic groups fight it out while their social order collapses. Eventually one will win and rebuild their civilization.

    As to Iran, I skimmed the publications listed by Zavon. My only question is if they don't hate us why do they keep electing assholes who hate us?
    -Agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.

    -"Personally, I play a warlock to set people on fire as they run in fear while I steal their souls. As an added perk, I play an undead warlock so I can eat their brains afterwards. I suppose a better question is, why do people play anything else?" (Unknown WoW forum poster)

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    Default Re: South Africa On the Path to Zimbabwe

    You talk about white Europeans staying there as being unrealistic, and then advise that they should all leave? Really? What is not only unrealistic (but also entirely retarded) is the suggestion that 4.5 million people (which by the way is about 10% of the population) give up all of their holdings and lives to just "go some where". You sir, are a god damned moron.

    I consider myself "white", but I am native american and Irish. Not just "native american" like a lot of people claim, either. My grandmother lives on a reservation, my mother lived on one before being put in foster care. I have family that work for Cherokee nations (and I am a member of that tribe), and I am also a member of the Houma Indian tribe. Here is a video of my cousin Greyhawk telling a Houma story at a musem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIPhA3gTY84

    And, speaking of Native Americans, your well-thought out brilliant plan for the Sri-Lankan tribes-people war (lol) is the Native American Boarding school idea. I'm glad you aren't anyone with any real influence; you are much more suited to smoking pot, bitching about the police, and watching the history channel.

    As to the publications, I'm not surprised you skimmed over it and then asked a stupid question. Your stupid question in no way invalidates a scientific study fielded with actual Iranians, and instead reinforces the notion that you like to make bold, ignorant claims.

    What it boils down to is this: Who fucked over who doesn't matter. You act as though learning the specifics of regions (like Sri Lanka) gives you some kind of great insight, but then dismiss it all with more stupid generalizations about the nature of humanity. 4.5 million people shouldn't be wiped off the planet because of their skin color. All of your rambling about stupid shit that happened in Sri Lanka, or the historic evils of humanity in general does not negate this simple fact. You have interesting facts for a dinner party, but nothing more.
    "Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." ~ Voltaire

    2 Kings 2:23-24: "....Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys."

  13. #13

    Default Re: South Africa On the Path to Zimbabwe

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Mars View Post
    First off, the approach would have to be long term, as in multi-generational. It would have to be coercive. It would probably involve killing people (see: WWII).

    You would need to take children of all the competing ethnic/religious groups away from their parents to be raised and educated to tolerate each other and get along with each other. You would teach them their cultural values but redact any elements that promote killing people of other ethnic/religious groups. You would need to let time pass so that the older generations that would propagate hatred die off (obviously you would have to gather members of the ethnic groups who were not committed to hatred to raise these children but there is always a rational minority who abhor violence in any ethnic group). You might have to kill off some elements of the ethnic groups who are committed to violence and hatred. In a few generations you would have a population of people who would get along.

    This approach would be expensive and it would be unacceptable to most people but it might actually work. Plans that are based around trying to bring opposing parties that have long term hatred for each other to a negotiating table will not work. Plans that are subject to the whims of four year political cycles will not work. Plans by people who want to feel like they are doing something positive will not work.

    The only other realistic option is to let the competing ethnic groups fight it out while their social order collapses. Eventually one will win and rebuild their civilization.

    As to Iran, I skimmed the publications listed by Zavon. My only question is if they don't hate us why do they keep electing assholes who hate us?
    If the white people form the equivalent of Kurdistan (like call it Whiteystan) in South Africa, they'd be fine. Basically, they need to start thinking tribally like every other group does, and they can live. If they fail, they will die.
    "The argument that “people now have more freedom than ever” is based on the fact that we are allowed to do almost anything we please as long as it has no practical consequences."

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    Default Re: South Africa On the Path to Zimbabwe

    Quote Originally Posted by Marou View Post
    If the white people form the equivalent of Kurdistan (like call it Whiteystan) in South Africa, they'd be fine. Basically, they need to start thinking tribally like every other group does, and they can live. If they fail, they will die.
    ^ This.

    White people are the only race on this planet right now that for some reason thinks they have no right to engage in white pride or white nationalism. It shouldn't mean racist or fascist or any other negative term for whites to do or think what every other race is allowed to do and think.
    "Nah man, a Paladin has to play fair and by the rules. Do you really see Silly not attacking a weakened opponent? Or rather, not exploiting a weakness to take an enemy down? He'd totally do that. It's the law of the jungle with Silly, even if he does have faith. I think he's principled, just not merciful." - Zavon

  15. #15

    Default Re: South Africa On the Path to Zimbabwe

    Informative video:

    "The argument that “people now have more freedom than ever” is based on the fact that we are allowed to do almost anything we please as long as it has no practical consequences."

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